Questions about tension and pins being set or over set

[subver]

Hey guys, I just had a couple questions...
Pretty new to lock picking... I have picked a bunch of locks.. the hardest one being Masterlock 140.. even though I still can't consistently get it open.
So just a couple questions that I can't seem to figure out or find the answer to:

1) When a cylinder has a sort of spring action to it (for example.. Masterlock 140) I'm confused as to what tension I use. Do I turn the keyhole until the spring stops, or still just use light tension? I hope this question makes sense. For example, on Masterlock 140.. if I use my tension wrench I can turn the keyhole a couple degrees against the spring.

2) I'm still having trouble finding the click of a pin when it's set. Some things I feel while using tension are:
--A lot of resistance... forcing the pin up gives me a sort of scraping feel. Is this the pin that is next to be set? (I know the scraping and resistance is probably from too much tension, right?)
--With the resistance pin, if I keep pushing on the pin it will eventually pop up.. then sometimes won't give any resistance anymore. Does this mean the pin is set, or does it mean the pin is OVER set?
--And sometimes I can push a pin up only a little way until it stops. Is THAT a set pin? It makes me feel like the top pin is above the shear line and the key pin is pushing up to the shear line, but can't go further because the cylinder is turned a little bit.

I guess I'm having trouble feeling if a pin is set or OVER set. How can I tell the difference? Sometimes it feels like all the pins are set, but the lock won't open.. when I release tension I hear the pins fall down. When a pin has NO spring left, and I can just push it up without resistance, is this pin set? Do set pins have any spring to them? Do OVER set pins have any spring to them?

Anyway I hope these questions make sense. I can usually pick most simple non-security locks, but the masterlock 140 is still giving me trouble. Not sure if it's the spool pin or what. I just got a bunch of security pins in the mail today so I will practice with those and hopefully gain a better understanding.

Thanks guys!

[Farmerfreak]

When a pin has NO spring left, and I can just push it up without resistance, is this pin set?

No

Do set pins have any spring to them?

Yes, the key pin will be free floating. But if pushed up to the driver pin, the driver pin won't be binding and will be springy. Be careful not to over set the key pin while testing them.

Do OVER set pins have any spring to them?

No

Note: These answers work best under extremely heavy tension. Remember to lighten the tension to actually move/set pins. Normally heavy tension is not needed, but it can help clarify what is going on inside the lock.

[lockpickfan]

Hello!

I think there is no "hard or light" but dinamic tensioning.
It's always depends on the lock itself, how hard springs are in the chambers, what is the material of the pin/plug, polishing of the pins, etc....... and the most important, how YOU can feel the pins.

I'm always start with harder tensioning to find the first binding pin correctly, after this i light up the tension slowly until i can push down the pin without big force, but feel when it goes to set.
After this I hold this tension power until it pops out or get a fals set. If get a fals set i use smaller power to find spools, and pop them out from fals set.

But as I sad, it is my technic for my hands.... what i feel maybe you don't, or what i'm not you will.... so you need to figure it out what method is comfortable for you.
If your picks and tensioners not bending after 5-10 locks, you are on the right way anyway I think.

Lpf

[subver]

Ok thanks guys. I am debating on getting a cutaway lock just to see where pins are and how they feel in certain positions.

Farmerfreak, thanks for the answers, I think that will help me as well.
Thanks lockpickfan.. my tension wrenches aren't bent yet so that's good

[Oldfast]

As far as discerning set from overset pins... I think FF covered it pretty well for ya.

And I know you're questions are for picking in general, not specifically geared towards the 140 your currently working
on... but thought I'd throw this out just in case it helps. Alot of people don't realize that there's a serrated pin in those.
Granted, it's a very WEAK serrated pin. But nevertheless... serrated. And, it's almost always in chamber 1 (closest to you).

Have you gotten the 140 to a false set yet? You're comin' along nicely! Keep workin' at it.

[subver]

Thanks! And yes, I have had the 140 in a false set multiple times, but I then have a hard time getting it out of false set, and most of the time other pins will fall back down when I try to get the spool pin up. I think I'm also not sure which one(s) are the spool pins, too. I don't really feel the tension wrench pushing back when I try to lift pins (to determine which is the spool)..
And on the other hand, I've also opened the 140 multiple times, but I think it was more of a dumb luck thing..

[Oldfast]

...And yes, I have had the 140 in a false set multiple times, but I then have a hard time getting it out of false set, and most of the time other pins will fall back down when I try to get the spool pin up...

Don't get discouraged, you're not alone. Many of the 140's will pop right open... but I have a couple that are notorious for that (dropping pins when working a spool that is). It could be that you're setting them in the wrong order... or, it could be an issue with your tension (lighten up too much and you'll lose previously set pins). Maybe experiment a little with both of those things? Tension & binding order. Sometimes multiple pins will give you counter-rotation when you test them! - if that's the case, you're looking for the one that gives you the most counter-rotation. I remember that's something that threw me for a loop when first starting! lol. People would say "set the one that's giving you CR"... and I would think "well, there's a BUNCH of em' that are giving me CR!" lol

[subver]

Thanks so much Oldfast! I think tomorrow I'm actually gonna get another Masterlock 140 just to change it up. I keep opening my other locks in between tries with this 140 just to satisfy myself, haha.
THanks for the encouragement and tips, they definitely help!

[darkhorse]

also check out solomons book in the uber noob section..Its a great read and gives you some clear excellent advice

[subver]

Thanks Darkhorse, I actually just read that as well.. it did help a little, but I'm still having some trouble with the 140. I'm buying a different ont today just to see haha. The one I have it seems like pin 3 and 4 bind at the same time and I jsut can't get them to set for some reason... I'm probably wrong, though, I don't know. The better I get the harder that lock seems to be haha.

[subver]

So I just bought a Master Lock 141D, I couldn't find another 140.. but I picked it in seconds on the first try (multiple times!). It seems very easy to open, and from what I've read it's similar to the 140.. not sure why the 140 is giving me so much trouble! I'll keep at it, though!

[Alaphablue]

You just need to practice and go to the vid section there are lots of vids explaining spooled security pins . Binding order learning binding order /how to feel the correct binding pin will help with success . Soon you will love running into spools

[subver]

Thanks alpha. I've read up and watched a bunch of videos on spools.. I understand the concept and what's going on, and I believe even this 141D masterlock has a spool.. I just need to practice more for sure. I even have a Schlage lock with a bunch of spool pins that I've been practicing on and picking successfully, there's just something about this master Lock 140 that is killing me! I will figure it out though, and once I get it I think it'll feel good
Thanks for all the help and tips guys! I really appreciate it!

[Oldfast]

.... and I believe even this 141D masterlock has a spool...

Yet another one that has given his life for the sake of knowledge, lol. A Master 141

[subver]

Awesome Oldfast, thanks for that link!
If I grind my 141 down like in the photos would I be able to repin it if I could somehow replug those holes?
Is that all I'd need to do to take the pins out, just grind it down on the side like that?
I saw another thread where a guy drilled the holes where the pins are (as well as one on the front) but I don't have the machinery for that..