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Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

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femurat

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Post Wed Apr 09, 2014 1:06 pm

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

When doing high-low tests I've always spun the gate number the direction I found it. I've never thought about spinning the other numbers this way too. Being it a test looking for differences it seems that consistency is the key. So your first attempt whith L92 and R82 seems fine to me. The second test you did seems unnecessary to me. Based on your results, I'm wrong. I'll keep this in mind next time I have a hard time with high-low tests and let you know what happens.

About the video, you spin fast man!

About a program to generate random combos, I've been using thesafehouse combo generator for ages and I'm very happy with it. I'm not saying Trevor program is't good. I just prefer an url over a program.

Cheers :)
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
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Post Sat Apr 12, 2014 10:21 pm

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

Thanks for all the feedback guys.... ALWAYS appreciated :yep:

The hi/low method I mentioned: Sometimes it makes no difference at all. Other times, as you seen,
it makes all the difference in the world! Really, it's just another somethin' to add to your arsenal.
You take it out with the mindset that "well, this MIGHT work better". That's all.

To tryn' find consistency in a mechanism that is anything but is just a recipe for going mad. lol
Over time, my mindset when it comes to manipulation has changed some. Don't get me wrong -
I'm still always in search of that 'golden nugget', that 'certain trick', that 'consistent approach'....
but nowadays I take everything with a grain of salt. This keeps me open minded, teachable,
and most of all, just seems to allow me to enjoy the whole experience with less frustration.

Sometimes you'll come across what you think is a 'break-through', or.......
you might have just found another small tool to throw in the box with the others.

femurat wrote:About the video, you spin fast man!
CPT1911 wrote:Man, watching you dial actually makes me feel bad about myself. I am pretty up on this stuff now, and I had to watch your video three times to keep track of what you are doing. You're stops and starts are so precisely executed--I just can't keep up buddy. I really can't.
.... and here I thought I had slowed it down just a bit for you guys. LOL! :wink:
Actually, when reviewing the vid, I too lost track of what I was doing a couple times.
It's just different when your watching as opposed to being in the moment I guess.
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

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Post Mon May 05, 2014 1:39 am

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

manipulation #19



Diebold 177-39

Group2 ... 3 wheel ... key change ... spring loaded fence

ImageImage

A beautiful lock. Just beautiful. Everything cleaned up quite nicely with this one.
The dial action is incredibly smooth. And the wheels - hell, I can barely feel 'em pick up.
(Just for the record - I believe the spline key should be seated with the flag over the spindle, not the cam)

Image

A rather interesting type of relocker in this old Diebold.
The piece is installed prior to placing the wheels on the post.

Image

The cover plate presses the prongs down flush allowing the bolt to move freely.

Image

Without the pressure of the cover plate, the prongs rise up into the
track enough to catch a ledge on the bolt so it cannot be retracted.

Image



CONTACT AREA
Approximately 6 incs wide
LCP 92 . . . . . RCP 98

ROTATIONAL CONVERSION
Unable to determine through feel

READINGS
....taken in tenths every 2 increments

UNKNOWN COMBO
L37 - R55 - L33
BINDING ORDER
1 - 3 - 2

Just as with the 0900, it is the LEFT contact point that will offer us the most fluctuation --
NOT the right contact point we've grown accustom to with S&G's, LaGards, and many others.

The choice of starting with a left rotation is just a preference. If I were taking readings on only
the right contact point (like on an S&G) I'd start with a right rotation. Again, it's just a preference.
I like to approach the CP in one fluent motion, rather than having to change directions once more.

Image

Most gates are normally 2-4 incs wide. So a one-increment peak struck me as a little odd.... but no doubt a gate.
I'm assuming that one or more wheels were masking this gate. So I guess I'm just lucky to have caught what I did.

Much of this manipulation consisted of me attempting to tag 36 to a wheel! lol

AWL @ 36 . . . 92.1
L36 L36 R26 . . . . . 91.8
L36 R26 L36 . . . . . 91.9
R26 L36 L36 . . . . . 91.8

A traditional hi/lo test points to wheel 1 OR 3.
Not only does it indicate multiple wheels, but
the readings go bad by ONLY 1/10 of an inc.

AWL @ 36 . . . 92.1
L36 L36 L26 . . . . . 91.8
L36 L26 L36 . . . . . 91.9
L26 L36 L36 . . . . . 91.9

Performing the same test, with all left rotation (mentioned in previous manipulation)
indicated wheel 3. But again, only 1/10 of a drop. Neither of these tests were
conclusive enough for me. Just felt like I'd be rolling with an assumption.

I've not documented everything here, but I will say... after attempting a couple more hi/lows using different test #'s
as well as isolation... I still had nothing concrete to go on. With 36 being on an undetermined wheel, I was a little
at odds as to where to go from here. I briefly considered just assuming it was w3 (and the odds are in my favor),
but the idea of running 1&2 on more or less a hope with good percentages just didn't appeal to me at the time.

The more sensible option here seemed to be: run w3 while leaving 1&2 on the good indication of 36.
1) I'll find a gate for w3, or 2) I'll find nothing, but will have ruled it out & taken less overall time to do.
CPT1911 has talked in detail about this option and found good success with it. Until now, I've never
had to use it. But finding myself in this little dilemma presented the perfect opportunity to give it a try.

Image

I parked wheels 1&2 @ LEFT 36, and started w3 around RIGHT. Initially, I was taking readings
every 2 increments (34, 32, 30, etc.). But when I hit the extreme drop at 30, I started again -
this time taking a reading at EVERY inc. A nice 3-inc wide gate spanning from 32-35.

:???: - :???: - R33.5

Also, the good indication I initially found at 36 with an AWL rotation?.... (I wasn't certain of this at the
time
), but I had a feeling that this was an entirely separate gate from the one I had just found for w3.

Remember, testing for 36 had left me at odds between wheels 1 OR 3. Having now found w3's gate,
I'm wondering if 36 belongs to w1. I try to confirm this through isolation. It is indeed wheel 1 AND the
fence has dropped onto w1 enough to catch the entire gate this time rather than just the edge at 36.

Image

L37.5 - :???: - R33.5

Before brute forcing w2, I wanted to convert w3 to a LEFT rotation.
Recall at the beginning I was unable to determine pick-up differences.
So I simply run w3 through the area, but with a LEFT rotation this time.

Park all wheels at LEFT 37.5. Go around RIGHT to pick up w3...
bring it to about 20. Go around LEFT to pick it up again at 20...
bring it to 30 and start your readings (30, 31, 32, 33, 34, etc).

Upon doing this I found the gate signature to be nearly identical.
So I now know I can safely approach 33.5 from either direction.

L37.5 - :???: - L33.5

Wheel 1 is the 'rotisserie' of the wheel pack... you can "set it and forget it". I place it at LEFT 37.5
I can now work wheels 2&3. I move w2 around RIGHT in incs of 2 starting at 30, (28, 26, etc.)
EACH TIME I move wheel 2 I must REPOSITION w3 at its' known gate of LEFT 33.5

Image

With some oscillation, the lock actually first opened at 58.
But at 56 the fence drops in smoothly with no coaxing.

OPEN: L37.5 - R56 - L33.5
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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Daggers

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Post Mon May 05, 2014 12:30 pm

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

Great job once again oldfast! All these group 2's are becoming too easy for you :D Does your Diebold have the little plastic ring that sits in between the dial and dial ring to make it spin smoother? Mine doesn't seem to have that and spins with a fair amount of friction, not sure if this is normal or not.
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Mikeh727

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Post Mon May 05, 2014 6:03 pm

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

Thanks for a great write-up Mike! It's always fun to read about your adventures.

My Diebold also spins incredibly smooth to the point where I can't feel the wheels pick up. Because of that smoothness, I sometimes find myself lost in the wheelpack. I've gotten lazy I guess and instead of paying close attention to my dialing, I've been relying on feel. My Diebold has taught me to slow down and pay a bit closer attention, so that's a good thing.

Daggers, mine doesn't have a washer and grinds as well if the dial is pushed all the way in. I have just a little play in the dial so I pull it out and spin without the friction. I don't know if that will help or not, but that's what I do to overcome the friction.

-Mike
I have an amazing grasp of the obvious. Beyond that, not so much.
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CPT1911

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Post Mon May 05, 2014 6:30 pm

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

Oldfast wrote:The more sensible option here seemed to be: run w3 while leaving 1&2 on the good indication of 36.
1) I'll find a gate for w3, or 2) I'll find nothing, but will have ruled it out & taken less overall time to do.
CPT1911 has talked in detail about this option and found good success with it. Until now, I've never
had to use it. But finding myself in this little dilemma presented the perfect opportunity to give it a try.


So glad this worked out for you, Mike! This is still my goto method!

Oldfast wrote:Recall at the beginning I was unable to determine pick-up differences.
So I simply run w3 through the area, but with a LEFT rotation this time.


I have used this technique as well. If you can't convert, just find it going the other direction!

Interesting relocker--never seen it before. I imagine it would be rather difficult to drill.

Trevor
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Daggers

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Post Mon May 05, 2014 6:49 pm

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

There's something I'm confused about. You're taking LCP readings only so you should look for a rise instead of a drop right? In the second graph, you're going AWR so aren't you supposed to read the graph from right to left? Then the graph would indicate a drop at 31 when we're looking for a rise. And with the third graph example it shows wheel 1 going around left but the graph looks like you graphed it from right to left instead of left to right since 33.5 is the end of it. What am I missing here?
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
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Post Tue May 06, 2014 12:00 pm

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

Daggers wrote:....Does your Diebold have the little plastic ring that sits in between the dial and dial ring to make it spin smoother? Mine doesn't seem to have that and spins with a fair amount of friction, not sure if this is normal or not.

This one did not come with that, no. Honestly, I'm still kinda learning about these myself.
If you take a look at this Diebold 177-23 (last photo where I have all the pieces laid out).
You can see the washer that came with that lock. It slides over the spindle and makes a
nice rotational surface. Also, the width of the washer brings the dial just off the dial ring
making it a little smoother.

So if you're having trouble getting yours running smooth, that's my only suggestion.
You might try finding a washer that's just right? I thought I'd be doing the same thing
for this one... but after finding it ran so smooth as is, there was no need for a washer.
Anyway, like I said, I'm still learning about some of these older locks - so I'm not sure
if the washer is standard, or if someone had added that at some point along the way.
Last edited by Oldfast on Tue May 06, 2014 12:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
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Post Tue May 06, 2014 12:02 pm

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

Mikeh727 wrote:...My Diebold also spins incredibly smooth to the point where I can't feel the wheels pick up. Because of that smoothness, I sometimes find myself lost in the wheelpack. I've gotten lazy I guess and instead of paying close attention to my dialing, I've been relying on feel. My Diebold has taught me to slow down and pay a bit closer attention, so that's a good thing.

SO true Mike. I remember the first time I encountered one where I could barely feel the wheels pick up.
It had me dusting off my cutaway lock in a big hurry! LOL. The whole experience made it very apparent
to me just how much I had been relying on feel rather than rotations to keep track of where I was at.

Every lock teaches us something different. Forces us to 'up our game' in one way or another.
That lock, just like yours, helped me to eventually swim laps through the wheel pack at ease.
The next one might have horribly mushy contact points... that hones your sensitivity ten fold.
And the next one will throw you for loops - forcing you to think strategically - resulting in some
rather unconventional approaches of positioning the wheels in order to coax out the gates.

And I love the fact that just one lock holds so many journeys. Get a good bang for your buck.
As your collection grows, be sure to keep cycling through the others. You may not think you're
gaining much... but you are. Speed, accuracy, intuition, & experience... it's all being stored up.
From time to time I'll even have a lock change its' binding order on me with a new combo put in.
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

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Post Tue May 06, 2014 12:05 pm

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

CPT1911 wrote:....So glad this worked out for you, Mike! This is still my goto method!

It DID! It worked out REALLY nice for this scenario. Thanks!

CPT1911 wrote:Interesting relocker--never seen it before. I imagine it would be rather difficult to drill.

Actually, the first one of these I receive HAD been previously drilled, lol.
After seeing your latest post, you've probably had enough drilling, ha...
but it you're interested I'll upload and send you some pictures of it.
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
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Post Tue May 06, 2014 12:08 pm

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

Daggers wrote:There's something I'm confused about. You're taking LCP readings only so you should look for a rise instead of a drop right?

That's exactly right. We're looking for a rise/peak instead of a drop.
Let's pull the graphs down here so we're not scanning up & down.

Daggers wrote:In the second graph, you're going AWR so aren't you supposed to read the graph from right to left? Then the graph would indicate a drop at 31 when we're looking for a rise.

Ok, is it maybe that our terminology just isn't in sync?
RIGHT= clockwise ...... LEFT= counter-clockwise

So in this graph, I left 1&2 at LEFT 36 and I'm bringing w3 around RIGHT.
My first reading was taken at 35. Then 34, 33, etc. The last reading was 26.

The 'rise' we're looking for runs from 35-32. That's the gate! As soon as the
gate is no longer under the fence the reading goes bad (drops) by a 1/2 inc.

Image

Also, you seem to be concerned with reading the graph from the direction it was taken in.
But regardless of what direction you read in, the information is the same. It's still there.

Read it from right to left and you'll drop off the peak we're on.
Read it from left to right and you rise up onto the peak we're looking for.

Either way, the rise/peak/gate is there. Six of one, half dozen of the other.

Daggers wrote:And with the third graph example it shows wheel 1 going around left but the graph looks like you graphed it from right to left instead of left to right since 33.5 is the end of it. What am I missing here?

Nope. 34 was not the end of it.... it's the beginning. It was the first reading I took.
Again, is it possible we're just thinking in different terms maybe?

Image

Around left. Spinning counter-clockwise. The #'s on the dial are ascending (34, 35, 36, 37....)

So you're obviously trying to get something straight in your mind here.
I'm not sure if I've helped clear it up or if I've completely missed the mark?
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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Daggers

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Post Tue May 06, 2014 1:16 pm

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

The 'rise' we're looking for runs from 35-32. That's the gate! As soon as the
gate is no longer under the fence the reading goes bad (drops) by a 1/2 inc. Image

Ohh, I get it now. See with me, I start 1 increment before the gate so I can see the whole gate and it'll go up the gate and then back down instead of starting out already on it and then going down off it. Probably a little more time consuming though :/

Daggers wrote:
And with the third graph example it shows wheel 1 going around left but the graph looks like you graphed it from right to left instead of left to right since 33.5 is the end of it. What am I missing here?

Oldfast wrote:
Nope. 34 was not the end of it.... it's the beginning. It was the first reading I took.
Again, is it possible we're just thinking in different terms maybe?


Same thing here, I read it starting from the right since that was before it took a huge jump. I understand now! :) You cleared it up pretty well, thanks!
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
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Post Mon Jul 14, 2014 6:33 pm

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

manipulation #20



Mosler 302-402

Group2 ... 3 wheel ... key change ... spring loaded fence

Image Image

Summer time brings my lock adventures & writings to a snails' pace. I still love it though!
I just have to love it a few minutes at a time here and there, lol. Other than that, I just do
my best to keep an eye on what all you folks are up to. I always enjoy reading & looking.

Lets pull the cover plate off this old beauty and have a look!

Image

Mosler uses a double-pronged spline key to securely join the drive cam & spindle as one solid unit.
Also typical for Mosler is the friction plug: a spring loaded circular delrin piece within the wheel post.
It applies constant pressure to the spline/cam/spindle assembly to insure smooth and proper function.
Lastly, a thermal link re-locker: if exposed to high temperatures, it will melt and trigger the re-locker.

Image
...and in a very large world... a small stack of joy


Image

This lock is quite similar to the Mosler from manipulation #16 - the main difference here being in the wheels.
Comprised of a delrin of sorts, I can only assume they're designed to help resist radiological attacks (ie. x-ray).
If a machine were used capable of producing an image - each wheel would reveal 3 gates & 3 key change holes.

Image


As always, the manipulation begins with a quick interview.
Each and every lock has a slightly different story to tell.

CONTACT AREA
Approximately 11 incs wide
LCP 93 . . . . . RCP 4

ROTATIONAL CONVERSION
pick-up differences for wheels 3, 2, 1 were:
-.2 .... .6 .... 1.2 .... respectively

READINGS
RIGHT contact point ONLY
...taken in tenths every 2 increments

BINDING ORDER
2 - 3 - 1

UNKNOWN COMBO
L77 - R16 - L27


This lock proved to be somewhat elusive at times. Not so much in finding the gates, but tagging them to a wheel.
You can see here, an all wheels right rotation reveals a gate at R16. But just as we all do at times, I had trouble
determining which wheel this gate belonged to. Keep in mind I've not documented everything from the original
free-spin I had with this lock. But I tried a plethora of hi/low testing using a variety of test numbers to no avail.
Also tried isolation. But wherever I parked the other wheels was obviously not allowing me to detect the gate.

Image

So I eventually took this course of action:
Parking wheels 1 & 2 at the gate (R16)
and running w3 by itself around left.

Image

Not far from 16, I hit a gate for wheel 3...

:???: - :???: - L27

I now turn my attention back to the gate I originally found at R16 - obviously, it is on wheel 1 or 2.
I assumed hi/low testing would now be more productive considering w3 is now aligned - wrong.
Once again my hi/low tests yield nothing - not even remotely close to anything conclusive.

So I again revert to isolation, but with a slightly different approach in mind.
First off, this is not nearly as complicated or as time consuming as it looks.
Getting it on paper, taking photos, and putting some words together was.

Ok. So...

I know that a gate exists at 16 - the question is, does it belong to w1 or w2.
I also know that one of the wheels seems to be masking/shadowing the other.
i.e w1 may have a high spot that's not allowing the fence to make contact with w2.

The idea is to find a low position to park w1 that will allow me to read w2 as I bring it through
the area in question (16). I chose four positions that will roughly cover the circumference of
w1 (noon, 3, 6, & 9 o'clock). Slightly up from the known gate at 16, I figure 20 for noon.
So the other three quarterly positions then are at approximately 45, 70, and 95.

Image . . . . . Image

(above) The first two isolations show no drop at all. I begin to wonder if the gate belongs to wheel 1.

(below) Parking w1 at 70, I begin to see a drop of hope. Parking at 95, and it becomes clear as day.

Image . . . . . Image

:???: - R16 - L27

Had the gate not shown up on w2, I would've then set my sights on w1 while parking w2 in quarterly positions.

But it did show up. So all that remains is to run w1 around every 2 increments,
placing wheels 2 & 3 on their known gates each time (along with some oscillation).
I found the fence would drop in easily at 76, 77, or 78 with no oscillation required.

OPEN L77 - R16 - L27


Image
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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flywheel

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Post Mon Jul 14, 2014 7:02 pm

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

So that's what my locks would look like if I cleaned them up. I wonder if that would increase their trade-ability.

Good job once again! It's always nice to know that any safe lock I have I can find out how to open it by searching this thread.
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Riyame

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Post Mon Jul 14, 2014 8:08 pm

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

Ha, very good stuff.

When I saw the thread bumped I thought it would have been a different lock.... or are you just getting in some practice for it? :lol:
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macgng: i am an equal opportunity pervert
macgng: aww fuck thats goin in someone sig :-(

If life gives you melons, you might be dyslexic.
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