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Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

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fgarci03

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Post Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:17 pm

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

Oldfast wrote: But when it works, it can be quick!

:shock: 3mins??
I'll be studying that video frame by frame on the next few days! :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Oldfast wrote:So the decision to park wheels 1&2 within the contact area simply gets them out of the way. We
can now run w3's entire revolution without having to worry about bumping or picking up 1 & 2.

Oh, so just a matter of conveniency on the graphing? Cool! That is actually something I still need to pay much attention too. When reading contacts on numbers very close or between them! Eventually it'll get faster, but this way is so much faster.

Thanks!
Go ahead, keep plugging away, picking on me! You will end up on bypass or with rigor mortise.
- GWiens2001
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

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Post Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:34 pm

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

fgarci03 wrote:
Oldfast wrote: But when it works, it can be quick!

:shock: 3mins??
I'll be studying that video frame by frame on the next few days! :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

LOL! Well, I'll wait and see if you can spot the nearly disasterful mistake I made towards
the end when running for the final gate. That manipulation could've been much longer &
certainly would've taken another song on my ipod. I would've deserved it too, lol. That's
what ya get when pushin' the envelope for the camera, lol.
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
http://www.youtube.com/Oldfast911
<<

Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
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Post Wed Jun 19, 2013 9:19 pm

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

Manipulation #13


DIEBOLD 177-23
aka: the 0900

Group 2 ... 3 wheel ... key change ... spring loaded fence

Image Image

As soon as I realized this lock was NOT going to yield to me in 15 minutes or less... it quickly became my favorite lock yet!
For those of you who have recieved the LockMasters Course that's floating around: Refer to Lesson 26. The student taking
that course manipulated this very lock. He too, had a great deal of trouble, and even mailed a letter back with his first
graph (which was actually his fourth) expressing his frustrations, lol. My experience with this lock was quite similar.

Image
flip-sided view of one of the wheels

Image
note the shape of the lever nose, as well as the drive cam gateway

CONTACT AREA
Approximately 7 incs wide
LCP 96 -- 3 RCP

ROTATIONAL CONVERSION
pick-up differences for wheels 3, 2, 1 were:
1 .... 1 1/2 .... 1 1/2 ....respectively
*very difficult to feel w1 pickup- so I wasn't certain*



For my first run through, I chose an all-wheels-right rotation. As usual, I take ONLY the right contact point.

However, this lock is very touchy and I had a great deal of doubt. So I decided to run a second graph in the same manner.
IF I am consistant with my readings, these two graphs should be identical. As you can see.... they vary considerably.
At this point there's certainly several things I need to hash out in order to even have a chance of cracking this!

Image
1) Spent some hours honing a very specific 'touch' for this lock. And also on refining a consistant technique of approaching the contact point.
2) Take a look at the drivecam gate again. Much different than the S&G's we've grown accustom to. Notice one side of this U-shaped gate is
slightly more rounded than the other. So just the opposite of most locks, it's the LEFT contact point that'll give us the most fluctuation.


After regrouping... I'm ready for round 2.
An all-wheels-left rotation while taking only the left contact point reveals a gate @ 50
*The rate of change this lock gave off was never more than 1/8 of an inc. Often times it was less than that!
*As definitive as this graph looks.... don't be fooled. Much deliberation went into nearly every mark you see!

Image
Upon finding 50, my heart sank. I thought my glory might be stolen right out from under me. lol
But after trying several factory combinations to no avail... I was all too thrilled to proceed :)

So which wheel is producing the indication around 50? I'm about to enter into a cluster-fuck of high/low testing (not pictured).
I performed two different sets. One showed w2. Two of them pointed to w3. And another one suggests both 2 and 3 equally. lol

So I resort to isolating each of these wheels...

Image
Wheel 3 gave off no variation at all. Although w2 did not produce the clearly defined gate
found in the previous graph, its' fluctuation was convincing enough for me to tag it to 50.
Taking into account rotational conversion found for w2 (1.5) ..... true gate center is 48.5

:???: -- 481/2 -- :???:

Graph #4.... I now set my sights on w3.
Image
Once again, really quite a tedious process to arrive at the picture you see.
The exact center of the 5 increment wide indication is chosen (71.5)...

:???: -- 481/2 -- 711/2

At this point, far too much uncertainty surrounds my findings to simply run for my final gate without graphing.
If by chance the lock does not open.... I'll have gained no additional info after running w1 around. But it did....

Image

OPEN: 62 -- 481/2 -- 711/2

Image

. . . . . . . . . CONCLUSIONS . . . . . . . . .

I only THOUGHT I had developed an acute touch in this game! This lock has
done me the favor of allowing me to take a more realistic view of my progress.

I call this a 'break-through lock'. One that forces you in some way to up your game.
The end result is that some facet of your skill set is brought to the next level.
Imagine another two dozen manipulations run through this lock...
my sense of touch will have heightened tenfold.
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
http://www.youtube.com/Oldfast911
<<

Riyame

Keeper of the Bests / Supreme Overlord of Small Format Interchangeable Picking Nightmares

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Post Wed Jun 19, 2013 11:31 pm

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

Awesome work! That is a very nice Diebold you have. Making me :drool: over here :lol:
PhoneMan: I always knew I'd say something stupid and it would be someone's sig
macgng: i am an equal opportunity pervert
macgng: aww fuck thats goin in someone sig :-(

If life gives you melons, you might be dyslexic.
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xeo

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Post Wed Jun 19, 2013 11:36 pm

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

Juicy juicy juicy! You're getting good man.
Image
The code is hidden in the tumblers. One position opens the lock, another position opens one of these doors...
http://www.youtube.com/xeotech1

(ノಠ益ಠ)ノ彡┻━┻

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fgarci03

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Post Thu Jun 20, 2013 1:24 am

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

I love how you make it look so simple!

That fence looks evil :twisted: How does the U shape affect manipulation? Or is it just a counterweight to let the fence rise again, given there is no big slope on the drive cam?
Go ahead, keep plugging away, picking on me! You will end up on bypass or with rigor mortise.
- GWiens2001
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escher7

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Post Thu Jun 20, 2013 4:34 am

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

The fact that both contact points are similar, (rather than one having a slope) must feel weird.
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femurat

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Post Thu Jun 20, 2013 7:40 am

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

Great job mate!
On your first graph, the center of the low area was 50... just saying ;-)

Cheers :)
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

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Post Thu Jun 20, 2013 12:57 pm

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

Riyame wrote:Awesome work! That is a very nice Diebold you have. Making me :drool: over here :lol:

lol... thanks Eric. And I know you were not expecting anything in return for the couple of items you so
generously have headed my way... but I very much look forward to returning the favor sometime.
Actually, for quite a while, I was not even aware that you collected safe locks!

But you're right! This is certainly a beautiful lock. One of my favorites so far.
My only regret is that the dial original to this lock did not survive the trip to me.
Spindle was broke clean off from the dial. I used the ring, but with another dial.

Purchasing dials can be tricky sometimes. Never a bad idea when paying to gently mention
to the seller that you've had bad luck with packaging in the past. This usually seems to help.

Image
To wrap the lock itself in bubble wrap is all well & good. But it's absolutely useless if it's
placed in a huge empty box where the lock can slide freely a foot in either direction! LOL

Image
Another problem I encounter all too often, is when the lock is shipped with the key IN it.
Regardless of what you're shipping (safe dial, padlock, cylinders, etc...) ALWAYS a bad idea.


xeo wrote:Juicy juicy juicy! You're getting good man.
lol... thanks so much. Well not nearly as good as I thought, ha... but I am one step closer.


fgarci03 wrote:That fence looks evil :twisted: How does the U shape affect manipulation? Or is it just a counterweight to let the fence rise again, given there is no big slope on the drive cam?
Honestly, I'm not really sure about the U-shaped design of the lever and the reasoning behind it. Maybe someone else will chime in?
When the bolt is retracted, the drivecam rests up against the bottom of the U. Maybe stops the bolt from being slammed into the
wheelpack? That's just a half-ass guess though. The lower portion of the lever arm (where you see a spot of grey paint) never
actually makes contact with the drivecam and does not interfere with manipulation.

What does though, is what escher has eluded to....
escher7 wrote:The fact that both contact points are similar, (rather than one having a slope) must feel weird.
The shape of the drive gate coupled with the rounded lever nose poses problems. I love it.
It forces a very precise touch in order to have any consistancy or notice any fluctuation.


femurat wrote:Great job mate!
On your first graph, the center of the low area was 50... just saying ;-)

Cheers :)
Indeed...lol... once again, the answer is right in front of me. I really learned a great deal with this one!
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
http://www.youtube.com/Oldfast911
<<

Riyame

Keeper of the Bests / Supreme Overlord of Small Format Interchangeable Picking Nightmares

Posts: 1913

Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2011 5:16 pm

Location: Canada

Post Thu Jun 20, 2013 7:08 pm

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

Oldfast wrote:
Riyame wrote:Awesome work! That is a very nice Diebold you have. Making me :drool: over here :lol:

lol... thanks Eric. And I know you were not expecting anything in return for the couple of items you so
generously have headed my way... but I very much look forward to returning the favor sometime.
Actually, for quite a while, I was not even aware that you collected safe locks!

But you're right! This is certainly a beautiful lock. One of my favorites so far.
My only regret is that the dial original to this lock did not survive the trip to me.
Spindle was broke clean off from the dial. I used the ring, but with another dial.

Purchasing dials can be tricky sometimes. Never a bad idea when paying to gently mention
to the seller that you've had bad luck with packaging in the past. This usually seems to help.

To wrap the lock itself in bubble wrap is all well & good. But it's absolutely useless if it's
placed in a huge empty box where the lock can slide freely a foot in either direction! LOL


Another problem I encounter all too often, is when the lock is shipped with the key IN it.
Regardless of what you're shipping (safe dial, padlock, cylinders, etc...) ALWAYS a bad idea.


Oh damn, that really sucks. Was there no way to fix it at all? That was a really nice dial. I hope you got a partial refund on that. An yes, I have asked several sellers who seem to not know locks to make sure to remove keys before shipping. Better safe than sorry.
PhoneMan: I always knew I'd say something stupid and it would be someone's sig
macgng: i am an equal opportunity pervert
macgng: aww fuck thats goin in someone sig :-(

If life gives you melons, you might be dyslexic.
<<

Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

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Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2011 3:16 pm

Location: Michigan

Post Fri Jun 21, 2013 9:32 pm

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

Actually the seller was MORE than fair. I had taken those photos in case he wanted to see.
He said that was not necessary, and offered a full refund in exchange for the returned lock.

By the time I had it all packed up and ready to send back out, he apparently changed his mind....
I had received a full refund via paypal, along with a message: "keep the lock. I have no use for it".
He even turned down my offer to cover the cost of shipping - saying, "Keep it for your troubles".

So all in all, I have no complaints. FREE LOCK :D
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
http://www.youtube.com/Oldfast911
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MBI

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Location: Utah, USA

Post Sat Jun 22, 2013 3:23 am

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

Wow, that is some seldom seen behavior from a seller. Congrats Oldfast!
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escher7

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Location: Canada

Post Sat Jun 22, 2013 3:33 am

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

Nice people do exist out there, you just have to find them.
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

Posts: 3926

Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2011 3:16 pm

Location: Michigan

Post Sun Jun 23, 2013 1:10 am

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

MBI wrote:Wow, that is some seldom seen behavior from a seller. Congrats Oldfast!
escher7 wrote:Nice people do exist out there, you just have to find them.

Granted, in the nearly 3 years I've been on ebay, I've made only 50 purchases (needless to say, I'm a VERY patient buyer)
But it's been a pleasant experience overall, with only a couple of the transactions not quite up to my standards.
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
http://www.youtube.com/Oldfast911
<<

Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

Posts: 3926

Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2011 3:16 pm

Location: Michigan

Post Mon Jul 15, 2013 7:42 am

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

Manipulation #14

LeFebure
1800 Series

Group2 ... 3 wheel ... key change ... spring loaded fence


ImageImage

Recall manipulation #12 - a La Gard 3330 gave me my very first experience with the shadowing effect.
In a roundabout way I eventually reached an opening. However, it seemed to involve far too much trial & error and guess work.
It was only through the process of elimination that I was able to arrive at the combination. Since that experience, I've really
been wanting to revisit this. Even though I haven't had a lot of time to spin... the wheels in my brain are always turning.

ImageImage
..... a flip-sided view of wheel 3.

So the other day I was watching a video - Mark Bates was demonstrating an automated dialer called the 'Soft Drill'.
Now I don't know much about automatic dialing machines, other than they methodically dial the shitload of possible
configurations at an incredible pace until the correct one is hit. May take 3 hrs, may take 3 days. Or it may fail entirely.

The Soft Drill however, is a radical departure from the conventional automated dialer. Rather than simply running through
the thousands of possibilities, the soft drill actually takes contact readings via sound, and intelligently manipulates the lock.
Mark makes very clear that he takes no credit for the Soft Drill. However, his vast experience & knowledge of manipulation
was integrated into the software. So naturally, much of the movements and methods of this machine mimics that of his.

The Soft Drill will run each wheel independently, starting with the most likely source-- wheel 3. Then w2, then w1.
But rather than simply parking wheels 1 & 2 in the middle of the forbidden zone, it takes the time to find the optimal
positions to park each of these wheels prior to running wheel 3. Likewise, it then finds the absolute lowest point to park
w1 prior to graphing w2. The Soft Drill takes contact readings on every increment. Opening time is roughly 20 minutes +/-
A fair amount of its' total time is spent determining the best positions to park wheels prior to graphing the one in question.
As a result, fence contact is optimized every step of the way... this creates greater fluctuation/definition for every graph.


Image

CONTACT AREA
Approximately 8 incs wide
LCP 2 . . . . . RCP 10

ROTATIONAL CONVERSION
pick-up differences for wheels 3, 2, 1 were:
1 .... 1 5/8 .... 2 5/8 .... respectively



So my thought was to take the same approach as the Soft Drill... but obviously on a smaller and MUCH less accurate scale.

The plan is simple: An initial sweep through the wheel pack with the main focus of simply finding the lowest point for each
wheel. Regardless of whether these are actual gates or just low points matters not. If it happens to be a gate, that's perfect.
If it is NOT a true gate, it STILL drops the fence slightly deeper into the wheelpack, allowing a gate to be revealed elsewhere.

Locks of this nature tend to paint a graph consisting of extreme highs and lows. If exploited correctly, the shadowing
effect actually becomes the locks' liability, and turns out to be quite a time saver for us. Due to these extremes,
only a very broad profile view of a wheel is required in order to reveal a great deal of information.


Image

Take for example my first graph. A total of only 11 readings gives a sufficient view of the entire radius. Looking at this, I can
immediately discount 80-90% of the wheel and avert wasting any time at all on it! After only 10-12 readings, I've narrowed down
a fairly small area that actually needs to be explored. What would normally take 60+ readings, I just accomplished in roughly 20!!


By taking readings every 10 increments, I'm quickly guided to the most promising area around 60.
We can safely assume the lowest point will be somewhere between 55 and 65. After amplifying
this area by taking a reading at every increment, 58 is chosen- which in this case actually looks
to be a fairly promising gate signature. Generally, I wouldn't expect this to occur all too often.


Similar to high/low testing, we utilize both the highest (40) and lowest (58) points in the graph.
By parking all wheels at the highest point, then dragging a wheel at a time to the lowest point...
we're able to tag the good reading of 58 to a particular wheel. Here, we find it belongs to wheel 3

AWR @ 40 . . . 10 7/8
R40 R40 R58 . . . . . 10 1/8
R40 R58 R40 . . . . . 10 7/8
R58 R40 R40 . . . . . 10 7/8

*Rotational direction is crucial here. The initial graph was taken using a right rotation.
Hence, EVERY number in the testing configurations are also approached from the right.


:???: - :???: - R58

Image

Having found the lowest point for w3, I now park it there while running wheels 1 & 2 together.
Again, only 10 readings is sufficient for a view that prompts me to explore the area around 30.

As I worked my way towards 30 (starting from 22) I eventually settle on 27 as the lowest point.
And just as before -by utilizing both the highest and lowest points on the graph,
I can determine which wheel this lowpoint of 27 belongs to.

1 & 2 @ L90 / w3 @ R58 . . . 9 7/8
L90 L27 R58 . . . . . 9 5/8
L27 L90 R58 . . . . .10 3/8

:???: - L27 - R58

Image

Wheel 1 is now graphed while parking wheels 2 & 3 on their previously found low points.
Here you'll notice the area to explore has widened slightly. The low point we're looking
for could be anywhere between 90 and 20. Even so, this is still only 30% of the wheel.

I started at 18, taking readings every 2 increments as I worked my way towards 90.
Enough oscillation drops the fence at 6. At 4... the fence dropped with no coaxing.

OPEN: R4 - L27 - R58

Image

. . . . . . . . . CONCLUSIONS . . . . . . . . .

By no means is this a tried and true method at this point. Certainly, it's a huge step up from my first encounter
with shadowing.... and I do believe I'm on the right track with this. Several more manipulations run through
this lock as well as my La Gard, should help to not only confirm, but further refine this method.

Also, I don't anticipate catching true gates for each wheel the first time through (as it was with this manipulation).
More often than not, it will probably require revisiting and readjusting each wheel slightly. That was the whole
idea behind briefly running through and finding the lowest point for each wheel: to drop the fence deeper
and optimize its' contact with the wheel pack. That way the gates should be much more apparent
through my readings as I revisit and rework the small promising area for each wheel.

Given the fact that we can so quickly discount huge portions of any one wheel and narrow down the
hunting grounds to a fairly small area -- it seems plausible that locks of this type may very well be
compromised faster than say, a Group2 S&G. My hope is to eventually free-spin these open in a
matter of minutes. But again, at this stage, it's still really just a speculation on my part.
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
http://www.youtube.com/Oldfast911
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