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S&G 6741 has me beat

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1985jim

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Post Mon Apr 16, 2018 11:32 pm

S&G 6741 has me beat

My friend was having problems with his safe lock, a S&G 6741. He replaced the lock and gave me the old 6741. It has a strange problem. When attempting to lock the lock, the drive cam will push the lever up and over the lever stop wedging it between the cover and the lever stop, of course completely jaming the lock. Looking at the position of the lever, it is quite a bit higher than any other lock that I have seen. There is a bit of play between the lever and the lever screw and a shim placed under the screw head seems to correct the problem. But that does not explain the lever being so high that it actually is higher than the drive cam. I suspect that someone has fooled with the lock. I suspect this for two reasons; first the screws holding the lock to the safe were loose, and second, the dial was installed almost 1/4 inch out from where it should have been. Any and all ideas will be appreciated! Thanks, Jim
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jharveee

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Post Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:15 am

Re: S&G 6741 has me beat

What is the third number of current combination? Is it somewhere between 0-20? In the forbidden zone? Could you provide a photo of this condition?
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mdc5150

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Post Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:51 am

Re: S&G 6741 has me beat

:agree:
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jharveee

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Post Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:48 am

Re: S&G 6741 has me beat

Do not use a number between 95 and 99 or between 0 and
20 for the third (or last) number of the combination. This
can cause a condition which will inhibit the mechanism
from locking correctly.

Rule #4 from the instruction on how to set a combination for S and G 6700 series combination lock.
Following this rule, Change your combination and see if this solves the problem.
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1985jim

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Post Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:11 pm

Re: S&G 6741 has me beat

I set the combination to 20-40-60. The last number of my friends "real" conbination was nowhere near the forbidden zone. I don't have a digital camera, but just think of the lever riding half on the drive cam the half over the drive cam. It is riding way too high or the drive cam is way to low. If I can borrow a camera, I will post a picture of this. Thanks, Jim
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1985jim

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Post Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:01 pm

Re: S&G 6741 has me beat

Attached is a picture of the lever after it has ridden over the lever stop. You can see how high it is.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
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MartinHewitt

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Post Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:08 pm

Re: S&G 6741 has me beat

Can you push the lever towards the wheels so that the fence enters the gates? Is it somewhere stuck? Perhaps the spring does not sit correctly or it is borken?
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt
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mastersmith

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Post Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:59 pm

Re: S&G 6741 has me beat

It looks to me like the lever spring is "pinched" between the lever and the bolt. Loosen the lever screw a quarter turn and see if that relieves your problem. If that is the case then someone has had your lock apart. I would strip it down and put it together from scratch (give that is just a 10 minute job, it may be a good thing to do anyway). Many times this spring gives trouble to those that are not familiar with the lock.
"All ye who come this art to see / to handle anything must cautious be...." Benjamin Franklin
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Oldfast

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Post Wed Apr 18, 2018 3:58 am

Re: S&G 6741 has me beat

Yeah, looking real close, I can see the shiny wear
on the edge of the lever stop where it's riding up.

mastersmith wrote:.....It looks to me like the lever spring is "pinched" between the lever and the bolt....
:agree: I can't think of anything else that might be causing it.

On another note: Notice the lever stop structure doesn't continue all the way to the top edge of the lock case (like the screw hole structures do, and are flush with the top edge of the case). Looking at the lever stops in a few of my 6741's - some of them stop short of the top (like yours) while others are taller and are flush with the edge - which would alleviate this problem. Anyway, I had never noticed this until your post.
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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1985jim

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Post Wed Apr 18, 2018 4:35 am

Re: S&G 6741 has me beat

Yes, I can push the lever off of the lever stop and the fence will fall in place. The spring is not pinched. There seems to be more than usual play in teh lever. I can move it up more in this lock than in other locks that I have. However the other locks are 6730 working locks. This is the only 6741 lock that I have. I did notice that this lever is not the same as the lever in teh 6730 locks. In addition to the color, I assume it is zinc, there is a difference in the shape of the part of the lever that the screw goes through. In the brass 6730 lever there is what looks like a washer that rides on the bolt, but it is really part of the lever. The lever that I have does not have that. Is there a separate washer that should be there in the 6741 lever? But if there is I think it would make the problem worse. The lever need to be held down lower, not raised up. I can almost get it to work by putting a thin cardbord washer under the screw between the screw head and the lever. Does this give anyone a clue, it sure does not give me a clue. Thanks, Jim
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1985jim

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Post Wed Apr 18, 2018 4:37 am

Re: S&G 6741 has me beat

I should have also said that I tried loosing the screw a bit and the problem is still there. Thanks, Jim
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MartinHewitt

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Post Wed Apr 18, 2018 7:24 am

Re: S&G 6741 has me beat

Oldfast wrote:On another note: Notice the lever stop structure doesn't continue all the way to the top edge of the lock case (like the screw hole structures do, and are flush with the top edge of the case). Looking at the lever stops in a few of my 6741's - some of them stop short of the top (like yours) while others are taller and are flush with the edge - which would alleviate this problem. Anyway, I had never noticed this until your post.

This is there for the 8500 series locks.
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt
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jharveee

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Post Wed Apr 18, 2018 1:19 pm

Re: S&G 6741 has me beat

Your friend gave you this lock because it was giving him trouble.? Do you know if it ever worked correctly? Let's get your friends lock and yours, side by side and disassemble to see what the difference is? I wish it would have been as easy as changing the combo. No such luck. Dang. What's your plan for this lock, install it in your safe? Use it for practice manipulation? I wouldn't trust it for either. May be better to buy another(new or better)lock depending on your needs. Could be cheaper in the long run. I am interested in seeing what is causing this. Hope you are able to solve the problem.
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00247

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Post Wed Apr 18, 2018 3:16 pm

Re: S&G 6741 has me beat

I have just been assembling a change out of a 6730 on a gun safe I painted. I went down and looked both locks over carefully, both have the full height stop. First, check that the fence bolt is the correct one. It looks like the right one in the picture, but it should have very little play when it is in the fence. I measured the shank on mine and both were .263 diameter. The fence should have only a small amount of side play when the bolt is tight.

Image

The only other spot that can contribute to excessive play in the fence is if the sliding lock bolt that the fence bolts to is sloppy. If it has to much slop in the slide portion of the housing it can wiggle. Any excess play there is amplified by the distance to the end of the fence where it could ride up on the stop.

If the clearance with the bolt/fence is correct I would bet the lock bolt has too much play where it slides. You could modify the case to extend the fence stop to the top like other styles. A metal insert epoxied or mechanically fastened may work. I would then delegate it to a practice lock.

I'm not a lock expert but I played one in a dream one night.
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1985jim

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Post Wed Apr 18, 2018 7:25 pm

Re: S&G 6741 has me beat

Yes the lock did work properly for about 20 years. Then my friend had to dial the combination several times to get it to open. I did not ask him specifically what this means so that is all the info that I have on the failure. He replaced the lock with a 6730 and gave me the old lock a 6741. It is the only 6741 that I have, so I can not compare it to anything. I took a look at a couple of 6730's that I have and they have the same lever stop that does not go all the way to the top of the case, but they give no problems. Looking at a 6730 next to this lock I can see that the lever is much higher, i.e. rides much closer to the back of the lock, and I can see that the lever in the bad lock has more play than the lever in a woking lock. The bolt seems fine. Could the lever have worn down enough in the area where it rubs on the screw and on the bolt to make this play. Looking at that area, it looks ok though. The play in the lever is vertical not as if the hole is too large, but as if there is supposed to be a washer under the screw head that is missing. There are not supposed to be any washers anywhere on that screw are there?
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