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Safe Talk, with Altashot.

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keymaster1053

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Posts: 433

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Location: Boston, Mass.

Post Sun Jan 19, 2014 1:35 pm

Re: Safe Talk, with Altashot.

A true Craftsman!! Great job.
(20:10:59) Blacky: oki
(20:18:08) MBI: Me working for the CIA is about as likely as you working in the Middle East.
(20:19:01) Riyame: lol
(20:19:05) Riyame: he is in dubai
(20:19:26) MBI rescinds his previous comment
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

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Location: Michigan

Post Sun Jan 19, 2014 5:40 pm

Re: Safe Talk, with Altashot.

Beautiful work! I'm always so grateful that you take the time for photos even though you're so busy!!

Altashot wrote:...lady on the phone said they had the timelock and it only needed to be mounted.

And this is just funny. Bet you weren't expecting THAT. lol
All is well though, eh? I'll bet that WAS good $ like you said :D
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

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Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2011 9:16 am

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Post Sun Jan 19, 2014 5:44 pm

Re: Safe Talk, with Altashot.

GWiens2001 wrote:
Oldfast wrote:
GWiens2001 wrote:P.S. Just got my first 4 wheel safe lock to practice on today. ILCO, though it has an S&G dial. :mrgreen:
Why you lucky #&*#.

:razz: :razz:
We now return you to your regularly scheduled Altashot programming. :wink:
Gordon

WHY YOU SON OF A.......

We now return you to your regularly scheduled Altashot programming. LOL
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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Altashot

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Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:32 pm

Location: Western Canada

Post Mon Jan 27, 2014 8:32 pm

Re: Safe Talk, with Altashot.

I had a short discussion with some members on another thread about La Gard manipulation.

I wrote: ..."Now I first look for the highest point, when the CP's are the furthest apart.
Then I manipulate very attentively 15 to 45 numbers away from there.
I have found that the gates are often about 90 degrees or about 25 numbers away from the high points, more or less."...

I was asked to evolve on the subject.

In order to avoid "polluting" the other thread, I chose to post it here. It pertains to this thread as well and I prefer to keep
these resources together rather than being scattered all over the place.

In the following story, I will try to explain, with pictures, how I came up with my theory and the observations I have made that seem to support it. This is not and exact science but it seems to work quite well. I have had many successes so far.
I assumed that you have a great understanding of how combination locks work and that you already have experience with manipulation. I do not get into the "nitty-gritty" of manipulation as there are several tutorials and the topic has been discussed extensively on other threads.

As I said, this is only a theory, and I am open to discussions/critiques/ideas on the matter.

Let's talk.

http://s1155.photobucket.com/user/Altashot/story/71817

M.
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femurat

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Post Tue Jan 28, 2014 5:06 am

Re: Safe Talk, with Altashot.

WOW that's a quite simple but solid theory. I like how you noticed the assembling details and developed from there.

The only problem I may foresee is how the three wheel profiles overlap. If two wheels have the gates relatively close to each other, it might obfuscate/move the single wheel high point position.

I'm gonna test it with my LaGard tonight.

Cheers :)
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

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Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2011 9:16 am

Location: Michigan

Post Tue Jan 28, 2014 10:40 pm

Re: Safe Talk, with Altashot.

femurat wrote:WOW that's a quite simple but solid theory. I like how you noticed the assembling details and developed from there.

:agree: Altashot, THANK YOU!!! This is a brilliant nugglet of knowledge you've graced us with!!!
Can't wait to have a good thorough run with this method. Followed by some questions, I'm sure. lol

p.s. Love the way you took the time to lay it out with your pictures. Even I can understand it :)
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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femurat

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Post Wed Jan 29, 2014 3:29 am

Re: Safe Talk, with Altashot.

Image

Here are the results of two tests I made yesterday evening with my LA GARD (rebranded by Diebold).
This was my very first combo lock, and for some reason I haven't changed its combo yet. It's 0 - 15 - 80.

The first thing I did was to put the first two wheels on their gates and started mapping wheel #3 Around Right. This way I was sure I was mapping the wheel shape without interference of the others. I was not looking for a gate, just for the wheel shape, so I decided to map it every 5 numbers to speed up the process.
As you can see in the first graph, there's a high spot @ 25, so the area of interest is between 80 and 10.

I decided to make a second test with all wheels Right, that is a much more realistic approach.
Don't consider the low spot I found at 0, that is actually a gate, we are not looking for gates during this experiment.
Here we have a high area between 20 and 45. I estimate the high spot is @ 33 so our area of interest is between 88 and 8.
There's actually a gate @ 0... so this method seems valid to me.

Thanks Altashot for the great help you've given us with this new approach you found!

Cheers :)
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LockManipulator

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Location: California, US

Post Wed Jan 29, 2014 1:02 pm

Re: Safe Talk, with Altashot.

I really like this, i've never thought that would be the reason why they're more oval in shape. I'm gonna test this out more extensively with several combinations and see how much luck I get :)
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CPT1911

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Location: Texas

Post Wed Jan 29, 2014 4:44 pm

Re: Safe Talk, with Altashot.

Alta! You add so much to this forum! I share everyone's appreciation for the time you take to put together such great posts!

You explained this perfectly and surely just saved us a lot of time. I think we all understand that this is not a concrete rule, but it arms us with a little extra knowledge that makes us better...you might say more "well rounded." Get it? "rounded"....ok sorry. *sigh*

Ok, so I do have a follow up question but it pertains to one of your earlier posts. You mentioned:

Altashot wrote:Most vaults I work on do use S and G, 4 wheel vault lock.


I've become interested in the 4-wheel stuff and have started poking around. I was puzzled to see that S&G offers Group 2 and 2M versions of their 4-wheel locks...I figured at that point, why not just manufacture one or the other?...certainly the vault market is not that finely segmented?...also, I would intuitively expect a 3 wheel 2M to be harder to manipulate than a 4-wheel Group 2...4 wheels to defeat autodialers?? Anyway, all of this is swirling around in my head. And from what I can tell, they do offer both. The 2M version (S&G 6631) incorporates false gates and the eccentric roller, while the regular 2 version (6731) is just a regular 6730 with an extra wheel. Is that correct? Do you see one more than the other? Both? What did you encounter in this case?

It's probably not a coincidence that I am asking this at a time when I am trying to crack my first batch of 2Ms...and struggling! :smile:
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Altashot

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Location: Western Canada

Post Thu Jan 30, 2014 9:25 pm

Re: Safe Talk, with Altashot.

Wow Guys, thanks for the kind comments.
I feel great about it, now that I'm not the only one that understands this.
I'm really happy that you are getting similar results, it validates my theory and makes me feel like a genius... :shock:

Approve, disapprove or improve, I want to hear about it. I seldom encounter La Gard so I wont get a lot of time with them.
It took me a long time time to understand "LaGardian". If anyone is going to get good with them, it'll be one of you guys, not me.

As for group 2M, again, I hardly ever see them. I never even tried to manipulate one. I know group 2M as MP locks,
Manipulation Proof, so I though it was pretty futile to even attempt to manipulate them. I now learnt that they CAN be manipulated but still never tried. In nearly 20 years in the biz, I've only encountered about 5...They are quite rare around here.

The 4 wheel S and G's that I work with on vault doors are not the 6731's. They are not even in the 6700 series, they are 6400 series. They are much larger, not the same foot print at all, and they are very different in their parts and workings.
One can be seen next.

---I was allowed to take pictures of a vault door the other day.
All I had to do was to unscramble a comb after they failed to comb change it properly.
To do this, I had to remove the entire back panel. A bit odd, normally there is an small access panel to service the combs or a larger panel that gives access to more of the guts but not the entire back panel...
Only 6 crews held it on. I took it off and was surprised at how light it was.
It's a low end door.
No beautiful stainless steel, rough black paint instead.
No chrome plating on the bolts, only nickel plated...Machining ridges were still visible and could be felt...
The mechanics worked but were rough, I could still see edges where oxy/acetylene torches were used.
Simple and effective but not eye candy, not awe inspiring, deceptive in it's simplicity and...Until seriously serviced... A turd.
The association using it don't have a lot of money, so they decided against a full service.

This door, although not up to Bank specs, is nicely equipped.
2, Group 1, 6400 series Sargent and Greenleaf combination locks, indirect gear drive.
1, Sargent and Greenleaf timelock.
The "critical" area is protected by Hard Plate, tempered glass, 3 relockers with thermal links and another layer of Hard Plate.
A couple switches were added to monitor bolt work position and all the wiring goes trough the top hinge.
Of course an emergency release/bi-pass handle in case one ever gets locked in.

Have a look.
http://s1155.photobucket.com/user/Altashot/slideshow/simple%20vault%20door

M.
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CPT1911

Familiar Face

Posts: 170

Joined: Wed Sep 18, 2013 10:05 am

Location: Texas

Post Fri Jan 31, 2014 9:35 am

Re: Safe Talk, with Altashot.

Thanks for sharing those pictures! I have long wondered if the lowly $100 S&G 67xx is what protects large commercial vaults. I didn't even know about the 6400 or 6500! I found some of these online priced in the $400-$700 range...lol...probably not ever going to see one in person! Again, I was surprised to see that they offer Group 2 ($400+), Group 2M ($500+), and Group 1 ($700+) versions of the 6400/6500....I think that's so weird that there are apparently people who would install a $15,000 vault door and then decide to save $100 and put a group 2 vault lock on it....I guess that just shows how manipulation is believed to be the stuff of hollywood! That or the littany of other things that proect these vaults (alarm systems, security guards, threat of jailtime!)

Altashot wrote:As for group 2M, again, I hardly ever see them. I never even tried to manipulate one. I know group 2M as MP locks,
Manipulation Proof, so I though it was pretty futile to even attempt to manipulate them.


:agree: That's exactly how I'm feeling right now! I might be making a little bit of progress, but it is slow going! So far, the LaGard approach seems reveal a whole lot less than S&G's implementation. Interesting to to know that these aren't as common as I thought....what would you guess, 95% of market is Group 2? 5% Group 2M? <1% Group 1? I guess I thought the 2M's were more common, mostly because there is no reason NOT to use one since they aren't much more costly but offer a LOT more protection!!!
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Altashot

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Posts: 424

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Location: Western Canada

Post Sun Mar 16, 2014 1:14 pm

Re: Safe Talk, with Altashot.

It's been a while...
I've been out of town for nearly a month, traveling the Province, inspecting ATM's.
One of the local Bank had an incident where two ATM's were broken into. The thieves made out with $400,000.00
It turned out that the screws holding the boltwork had been weakened, almost cut through with a hack saw...
This would have had to happen while the Bank was still under construction and before the locks were installed...
Possibly weakened by a construction worker who had access. The ATM's were loaded the night before the Grand Opening and were also broken into that night. Someone knew what they were doing. The Bank main door had had the glass removed, the alarm was disabled, and video recordings destroyed. The ATM room door was busted and the ATM's opened with a crow bar...
The Bank HQ immediately requested that all the ATM's be inspected to see if this had been done to any other...
I didn't find any.

---Just the other day, I received a call from a gentleman. He was locked out of his gun safe. He told me that he had ordered an electronic lock to replace the mechanical one that his safe came with. He thought that the dialing procedure was a PITA and he never really got the hang of it. Assuming that replacing the lock would be easy, after all he is a farmer and he is definitely handy, he fixes his tractors and farming implements. he'd try to do it himself. He was telling me on the phone what he had done and the symptoms of what was now happening and asked for help.

It was a John Deere gun safe, made by Liberty Safe Co. He is a John Deere fan, from his tractors to his bar stools and drinking glasses, all John Deere. The safe was in his shop, heated, bright lights, filled with all the tools and machines and toys one man could need, and then some, I was a little jealous...
Seeing all the mechanical lock parts he had left on his work bench, it became apparent that he omitted to install ONE part...
That ONE part that holds the re-locker back. It prevents it from firing during normal use...
...DAMN! The one thing I dread the most, a fired re-locker. Having worked on these safes before, I had a pretty good idea of where the re-locker was but also knowing that the lock was protected by 3 layers of 1/8" hard plate, I wasn't just gonna poke holes in the door to find it.
So, I called Liberty Safe Co. After checking my credentials, they were very co-operative and gave me the drill point. Knowing that I was Canadian, they even gave the metric measurements. I laughed and asked for them in inches.
So I started to drill, the outer shell was easy, the fire retardant was easy, in fact, it is a couple sheets of dry wall, the inner shell was easy, but then, the bit hit something hard and refused to penetrate further. I had hit the hard plate. Now it was time to set up my rig. A 5.5 amp 1/2" selectable hammer drill, a range of carbide tipped drill bits and a tie-down strap.
I fitted the drill with a carbide bit, selected the drill function, not the hammer, wrap the strap around the safe and the
drill, squeezed and locked the trigger and tightened the strap. This still takes a lot of muscle to maintain the drill perpendicular the the door. With that much pressure from the strap, the bit will flex, or break or drill at an angle if the drill is not held strait.
After 2 hours, the hammer function of the drill engaged itself. There was no way I could turn it off, I think something broke or melted in there but the drill kept going and so did I. It is not uncommon for me to abuse a drill like that, it takes what it takes to go through hard plate and I don't care if the drill burns out. I don't care if they never last more than a year...
2 and a half hours into it, it started to smell funny, a very characteristic odor that I know so well, an overheated electrical smell. I stopped the drill and it was smoking. I took a break to loosen my muscle and let the drill cool but upon my return, the drill would not work, it was dead. I was an hour out of town and drill less. The client had just witness how severely I had abused that drill, so he didn't offer me to use his. I phoned a co-worker at the shop, and he met half way. He brought me a 9 amp high torque drill. It weighed a ton but with my rig, it doesn't matter. I continued drilling and about 10 minutes later, the bit broke through. I peeked inside and I could see the re-locker. With a sharp slotted screwdriver, I pried the re-locker out of the way. I had to take a few "bites" at it so I had to make sure to bind it with the handle to make sure it would not drop again between "bites". I dropped it a couple times, but on my third attempt, the handle turned.
YES! And I pulled the door opened.
This is the moment where I get that "high", and the adrenaline rushes...The moment when I get that sh*t eating grin on my face...That's the moment that makes my whole safe cracking career so awesome...

I repaired the hole, re-installed everything properly, including the re-locker holder and charge the gentleman $565.00
He was happy to have his safe working again, laughed about having "learned a lesson" and handed me his company credit card.
I was just about to drive off when he stopped me to ask if I wanted this. He was showing me the old lock...
I took it.

http://s1155.photobucket.com/user/Altashot/story/76649

M.
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GWiens2001

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Lock-Goblin-Gordon
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Post Sun Mar 16, 2014 1:59 pm

Re: Safe Talk, with Altashot.

Thanks for the treat of a story, and especially the pictures, Altashot!

Gordon
Just when you think you've learned it all, that is when you find you haven't learned anything yet.
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

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Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2011 9:16 am

Location: Michigan

Post Sun Mar 16, 2014 3:00 pm

Re: Safe Talk, with Altashot.

Always excited to see something new pop up on this thread :D
And good to see ya... I was startin' to wonder where you've been.

What a sweaty battle you've described, lol. Just goes to show it's not all glorious. It's hard work!

The ATM heist: I don't condone it, and I would never steal anything. But with that said....
I find it VERY interesting. Just like "Masterminds"- a show that was on a while back about
heists of all sorts. I loved that show! I find both the thief and the pursuers quite intriguing.
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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flywheel

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Post Sun Mar 16, 2014 3:20 pm

Re: Safe Talk, with Altashot.

I didn't know hard plate was that difficult to get through.

This is my favorite thread on keypicking. I totally dig the stories and pictures.
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