Safe Chronicles, Part II - Beyond the Lockroom

[Oldfast]

Nothing spectacular, but another fun opening from this past winter.

From what I've read, LSDA does not produce safes. Instead, their
label ends up on safes from a variety of different manufacturers.



This is a straight-tailpiece lock. Both key & combo are required.
Three wheels + a drive wheel... for a 4 number combination.
The lock/key, in this case, obviously controls the fence.











Note the extreme angle of the fence. You can imagine the binding
order was quite prevalent - starting with the drive wheel, then w3,
w2, and finally w1. Due to the fence being so tilted, wheel 1 didn't
matter though. After locating 3 of the 4 gates, the fence penetrated
the wheel pack enough to retract the the bolt and pull the door open.

[MartinHewitt]

Thanks! Was the angled fence produced that way or does it look like it was bend afterwards?

[mdc5150]

Great work Mike. I love the ingenuity of your laser/key setup. Simple yet brilliant.

I recently drilled a lock very much like this one because the drive pin on the drive wheel fell off. Every time I drill a safe I think our our discussions about drilling over manipulation and think to myself "well this time it had to be drilled there is no way around it."
Thanks for sharing your experience with us.

[Oldfast]

Hey, thanks guys.

Martin - I tend to think this bend maybe occurred over time. However, there's a real possibility it could have come straight outta the factory like this. There's a lot of low-end, overseas, imported safes out there (dunno if this one falls into that category)... but we all know they're usually concerned more with sales than security. So it wouldn't surprise me.

Matt - As you know, if I were to run into that situation, I'd have no choice but to walk away. I still LOVE the fact that you've taken the time and effort to become proficient in BOTH disciplines. You just don't see that as much nowadays. Surely you've found manipulation to be a huge help, even within some of your drilling excursions? They compliment each beautifully, no?

[castagnojohn]

It's great to see someone really enjoying what they do , thank you for posting this. Did you impression the key too? Keep up the good work.

[mdc5150]

Hey, thanks guys.

Martin - I tend to think this bend maybe occurred over time. However, there's a real possibility it could have come straight outta the factory like this. There's a lot of low-end, overseas, imported safes out there (dunno if this one falls into that category)... but we all know they're usually concerned more with sales than security. So it wouldn't surprise me.

Matt - As you know, if I were to run into that situation, I'd have no choice but to walk away. I still LOVE the fact that you've taken the time and effort to become proficient in BOTH disciplines. You just don't see that as much nowadays. Surely you've found manipulation to be a huge help, even within some of your drilling excursions? They compliment each beautifully, no?

Absolutely, diagnostics is much easier when you have put in the time to learn manipulation. I just wish I had more opportunity for manipulation in the field.

[MartinHewitt]

I am in contact with a German cracksman. He does do mostly manipulation, decoding and picking and resorts to drilling only when the damage-free methods are not possible at all or to much effort. A 3330 is on his manipulation list, a 3390 probably not.

[Altashot]

I haven't been here much lately, so, coming into this kinda late but,
good work Oldfast! you're becoming quite the safeman!

M.

[Oldfast]

It's great to see someone really enjoying what they do , thank you for posting this. Did you impression the key too? Keep up the good work.

Hey, thanks John. No, the key was present... combo unknown.

I am in contact with a German cracksman. He does do mostly manipulation, decoding and picking and resorts to drilling only when the damage-free methods are not possible at all or to much effort. A 3330 is on his manipulation list, a 3390 probably not.

Nice. Always good to know someone like that to talk with.
Now is he also the one that sometimes refers jobs to you?

I haven't been here much lately, so, coming into this kinda late but,
good work Oldfast! you're becoming quite the safeman!

Altashot!! Certainly have missed ya around here my friend.

Thanks so much. And ya know, it's taken some years...
but I'm finally starting to feel like a safeman.

Still soooo much to learn though. Sometimes I want to know it all right now, lol. But most of the time, realizing I have a lifetime of learning ahead gets me excited. In fact, even after 7 or 8 yrs now, I still love it just as much. I can be anywhere doing anything, and the mere thought of manipulation literally provokes a physical reaction in me - a quick 'rise' in my stomach (like when you hit the top of a roller coaster). The end of this season was actually kinda difficult for me! I was feeling sentimental as I cleaned & packed up my tools, stools, heaters, etc. for storage. Then I became rather depressed for a while. lol

This winter was just so thrilling for me. Naturally the usual suspects - each season is speckled with a variety of Sentry safes, S&Gs, OC-5's.... but some of the more exciting experiences/accomplishments included: a floor safe sporting STAR's manipulation resistant push-in dial, a Mosler 5-H, and several S&G 6810's. I finished the winter at 34-0. Am I bragging? Mmmaybe a little, lol. Figure I best take it while I can(!) since it's unlikely I'll ever see a perfect winter again! There's always at least a few that force feed ya some humble-pie.

Anyway, I love sharing what I can of it here with you guys
(as not many people can relate). I'll continue posting more
of this past winter as I find time throughout the summer.

Thanks for having a look guys.

PS I'm curious. Are the pics too large on this latest post?

[mdc5150]

I can't wait for more Mike. The pics are perfect.

By the way what is the clamp setup made of for your laser and key?

[MartinHewitt]

I am in contact with a German cracksman. He does do mostly manipulation, decoding and picking and resorts to drilling only when the damage-free methods are not possible at all or to much effort. A 3330 is on his manipulation list, a 3390 probably not.

Nice. Always good to know someone like that to talk with.
Now is he also the one that sometimes refers jobs to you?

It has not happened yet, but yes there is this option. The was so far one chance, but the potential customer seems to have solved the problem already.

several S&G 6810's

Are they easy to manipulate?

34-0

You have manipulated the STAR's too?

I'll continue posting more of this past winter as I find time throughout the summer.

I am really looking forward!

PS I'm curious. Are the pics too large on this latest post?

For me they are not to large. I love to see details.

[Oldfast]

Sorry for such a delayed response here guys.

.....By the way what is the clamp setup made of for your laser and key?

Matt: Most all of it's comprised of electric related parts. My first attempt HERE. The clamp itself is for grounding rods. The U-shape cradle to hold the laser came out of a disconnect box. Both parts require some filing to get them streamlined. Additionally, the ground rod clamp is really not meant to handle much torque (first one I tried cracked) so I reinforced it with a good amount of jb-weld on the underside of each half. I've also upgraded my laser HERE, from Calpac. I like this one the best so far... though I still have some issues with it dimming sporadically. This may be due to the extreme cold I'm usually in (but I'm not really sure yet).

This clamp is pretty versatile and I'm pretty happy with it for now. But Matt, if you plan to devote much time to something like this: Honestly, I think your time might be better spent actually designing the ideal clamp that would accommodate all handles and keys, then have it fabricated.

I like my laser/mirror(s) setup. I mean, nothing amplifies reading like 20-40 ft.(!) of beam travel, lol. However, I've plans to become familiar with a magnetically based indicator as well. I think this also has its' advantages, and it's just nice to have options. And remember, we now have a third option for straight-tailpiece locks HERE - no setup time involved at all.

several S&G 6810's

Are they easy to manipulate?

Martin: Generally, they're considered to be difficult and more time consuming, for a multitude of reasons. There's no torque on the wheel pack, the lever/rollerbolt assembly is rather loose, and naturally there's no detent ball. All this creates for an overall sloppy, inconsistent lock. Additionally, the contact points are usually quite faint/weak, sometimes non-existent at first. And the heavy, sometimes noisy dial doesn't help matters either. I used my amp on 2 of the 3 I worked on this winter.

You have manipulated the STAR's too?

Only one so far, but yes. With a decent quality dial indicator they're doable. The write-up in regards to these locks in "The National Locksmith's Guide to Manipulation" is fairly accurate.

[MartinHewitt]

Are they (6810) easy to manipulate?

Martin: Generally, they're considered to be difficult and more time consuming, for a multitude of reasons. There's no torque on the wheel pack, the lever/rollerbolt assembly is rather loose, and naturally there's no detent ball. All this creates for an overall sloppy, inconsistent lock. Additionally, the contact points are usually quite faint/weak, sometimes non-existent at first. And the heavy, sometimes noisy dial doesn't help matters either.

Then my clone is probably not a good clone. I expect it to be manipulated rather easily, because of the slight tapering of the fence. Have to wait for a dial to actually try it.

Only one (STAR's) so far, but yes. With a decent quality dial indicator they're doable. The write-up in regards to these locks in "The National Locksmith's Guide to Manipulation" is fairly accurate.

Great! Didn't remember that lock there. Never thought this could be helpful for me.

[Oldfast]

.

Herring-Hall-Marvin

.

25" tall ... 16" deep ... and 16" wide

Both the handle as well as the arrow-shaped hinges shout HHM.
Dialing: L-R-L Right to Stop. Handle: CCW 30 degrees to open.









T-20 label was used on safes produced in the late 1950's,
and would now be equivalent to todays TL-15 certification.








Given what I felt throughout the manipulation, I had some real
concerns with the lock. However, the owner, combination in hand,
seemed content enough to simply have it open. And that was that.

This is as far as I (and my camera) went. The lock no doubt
is a Sargent & Greenleaf. Likely an old version of the 6730.



Indicative of HHM is the rather crudely shaped/crimped tracks for the bolt work.

Also common to HHMs is the relocker. Interestingly, the post that the relock lever
pivots on actually contains a spring-loaded plunger. When the relock lever drops
this plunger extends to 'cross-lock', or, 'deadlock' the lever. Resetting the lever
then involves disassembly of the post. A sort of 'relocker within a relocker'.




Happy Spinnin' Folks

.

And . . . . .

It seems HHM safes were fitted with quite a variety of locks through the years.
Some of their own creations included some straight tailpiece locks. Also,
a friction fence lock, usually found on their round doors and lug doors.
Following that is a who's who list of lock makers including
Sargent & Greenleaf, Yale, Mosler, and Diebold.

Below are some photos I dug up from a couple years back,
when I serviced a similar box, but with a different lock.
Again, the signature relocker and crimped bolt tracks.





3 hole-change wheels, a front-mounted driver, and a unique spring-loaded lever with a round fence.
I believe they dubbed this as their own as well - though it screams Mosler to me, spare the fence.

[Riyame]

Awesome updates Oldfast. Glad to see you are still enjoying working with safes.