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Posted: **Wed Aug 21, 2013 10:52 pm**

OK, I hope you guys can help me I just finished a commercial job, it was 9 mortise locks and two sets of double doors with push bars and canceled rods. The mortise locks weren’t too bad but the panic hardware was a real bugger. Any way I finished it today and now they want a master key system or maybe a grandmaster system. This is where I need some help I don’t know much about master keying. Keep in mind there are no IC locks they are all Schlage SC4 standard 6 pin cylinders. So is there a program I should get to help figure out what pins/cuts to use? I think I remember somebody on here made a program to do this? It will be all new so I can make it any way I want I don’t have to worry about adapting to an existing system. Any help will be much appreciated.

Posted: **Wed Aug 21, 2013 11:02 pm**

Doesn't Instacode have a master keying module? Do you have access to that?

Posted: **Thu Aug 22, 2013 9:44 am**

I only have Code Source lite but I will look in to that.

Posted: **Thu Aug 22, 2013 12:57 pm**

Master keying Is easy just think about it if you know how to rekey locks already. Most masters are cut at the deepest setting like 679999. This is because to avoid close calls with your change keys. Closer the call the smaller master pin you have to use. But avoid small masters cause they jam. Also depending on your chambers you might have to swap out all top pins if you got some long pins loaded in one chamber you want to avoid maxing your chambers if you go grand. PST me if you have any technical questions. For that example grand master cut of 679999. Make your change keys start at 67xxxx and make your last 5 cuts different for you reg master and your change keys it will save you time.

Posted: **Thu Aug 22, 2013 3:26 pm**

rzr800 wrote:Most masters are cut at the deepest setting like 679999. This is because to avoid close calls with your change keys. Closer the call the smaller master pin you have to use.

Not trying to step on your toes rzr800... but I disagree.

You should always try to have one of the deepest and one of the shallowest cuts on your TMK (top master key). You are using Schlage, so you want a "9" (or an "8", deeeeep is the key) and a "0". Make sure that none of your change keys share that "0" cut with the TMK, this is so they cannot be filed down to be turned into a TMK. Put the deep cut towards the middle of the key, if its near the bow it physically weakens the key and creates unnecessary wear on both the key and the pin. It's also good form to alternate odd/even and deep/shallow, this is an excellent anti-picking measure.

Your system will be small, so you can get away with all shallower cuts on the TMK (< 5) and go deeper on your changes (> 5). That would give your customer the best security.

Hope that helps.

Posted: **Thu Aug 22, 2013 4:03 pm**

No offense taken dmasters, that 67999 was just an example. Having a 0 cut is something i've never thought of, but thanks for sharing it sounds like it could bring a lot security. I never thought about people filing down change keys into masters never crossed my mind. You were right about the first cut or two not to be deep maybe 6 at the deepest to prevent structural failure (weakedness) in the key. Thanks for your info

Posted: **Thu Aug 22, 2013 5:58 pm**

Here is the flow chart I made to show what I need. i think its 1 grandmaster, 4 masters and 2 submasters?

Posted: **Thu Aug 22, 2013 7:15 pm**

If you have Excel PM your email address to me. I wrote a 64 page system generator. All you have to do is plug in your TMK and it will give you page masters and page group masters. You still have to keep your eye out for MACs violations and you have to figure your own pinning.

Posted: **Fri Aug 23, 2013 8:07 pm**

Matt Blaze has a very good paper on master keying and rights elevation.

http://www.crypto.com/papers/mk.pdf

You say " I don’t know much about master keying" .

If you haven't read it it is not only a good paper on Master Keying but has some good tips on avoiding some of the pitfalls mentioned above. As well as some good pics. of cutaways.

Cheers.

Posted: **Wed Sep 11, 2013 8:28 pm**

GringoLocksmith wrote:Doesn't Instacode have a master keying module? Do you have access to that?

I love when people / locksmiths and "professionals" thinks that software will do everything for you. You have to understand the concept of Master Keying first.

rzr800 wrote:Master keying Is easy ...... Most masters are cut at the deepest setting like 679999

Sorry to tell you that, but you are completely wrong here... and you missed one of the critical rules...

dmasters wrote:Not trying to step on your toes rzr800... but I disagree.

Completely agree with you dmasters.

rzr800 wrote:No offense taken dmasters, that 67999 was just an example.

People learn from examples...

mdchurchill wrote: I wrote a 64 page system generator.....You still have to keep your eye out for MACs violations and you have to figure your own pinning.

I have not seen your generator yet, but OP said "I don’t know much about master keying.", so it can be difficult for him to do.

Maxlox wrote:Here is the flow chart I made to show what I need. i think its 1 grandmaster, 4 masters and 2 submasters?

Ok... a bit confusing (unclear) to my taste.

What are you trying to do? Is it something like this - MK - Flow Chart 1 ?

Building 1 - MK1
Are all exterior doors keyed the same (KA) or are different to each other (KD) ?
Are all Interior doors keyed the same (KA) or are different to each other (KD)?

How many CK you need under each MK/SMK?

Just let me know a bit more and i might help you out.

GMK - Grand Master Key
MK - Master Key
SMK - Sub-Master Key
CK /PK - Change Keys / Pass Key
KA - Keyed Alike
KD - Keyed to Differ

Posted: **Wed Sep 11, 2013 9:15 pm**

Master Keying wrote:Sorry to tell you that, but you are completely wrong here... and you missed one of the critical rules...

Which is...?

Posted: **Wed Sep 11, 2013 9:43 pm**

xeo wrote:
Master Keying wrote:Sorry to tell you that, but you are completely wrong here... and you missed one of the critical rules...

Which is...?

Yep, right. I should have mentioned it.

The Master Key should always have at least one shallowest bit/cut within the bitting (0 or 1). As it will technically prevent from re-cutting other keys within the system.

Posted: **Fri Oct 11, 2013 11:35 am**

OK, sorry it’s taken so long to get back to you guys about this but I went through a real busy period. I ended up getting the job, to be totally honest there’s no way I would have been able to do this without the help from you guys on this site, a couple guys really helped me out a lot. Thank you! I did this job for a General Contractor I was upfront with him from the beginning that I really have no experience with master key systems but he insisted that it would be fine and he wanted me to do the job. (he's an older guy that i have worked with for a while) I'm sure this could have been done better and i did it before some of the last posts were posted, but this is what I did and it seems to be working. Again Thank you for all the help.

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