Bitting List

[selim]

Do you guy's charge customers to provide them with a msterkey system ? If not, is it your system,or theirs.

If they don't pay for it, can you call it your's, and they can't have a copy of the bitting list.

Just wondering what you guys think. So many thing's to think about, when trying to start a lock shop.

selim

[mdc5150]

The way my shop does it is to charge a little bit extra per cylinder when keying to the master system but we keep the system on file. We only give them a copy of the system if they ask.

[jailersmith]

In Oregon, the customer is the owner of the master key system. If a customer wants to take their business elsewhere, then they get the keying charts. Retaining any records constitutes theft. You're providing a physical security service and charge accordingly. Usually you have an authorization agreement in writing. Only the persons listed are authorized to get keys cut and signatures are required. This is how the locksmith protects his or her's business interests.

[sandman]

sometimes we buy the system from a company when they switch locksmiths,
sometimes when a company is bought buy another company, they automaticaly switch locksmiths and come to us with it, but we usualy pay for the account and system because that means more money for us in the long run. if we are managing a GMK, 10 MK systems, and about 100 key systems, we would pay probly a couple hundred bucks for their file with all the paper work on their bittings and locations those keys go to. because within 6 months, that type of client would be big enough that we would make our money back.

we create systems for clients, or take on old ones.

most important thing about it is ORGANIZATION. ive worked for good organized locksmiths, that made half a million a month in sales between everyone, and ive worked for failing companies. ORGANIZE YOUR SHIT IMMEDIATELY!

[selim]

But can't you say It's my system, be coues you never paid for it ?

[MBI]

I have on occasion generated basic masterkey systems at no extra charge when I have keyed up and changed out all the locks for a customer. On the jobs where I've done it for free, they've either been a friend or aquaintance, or else the system was so small that the effort in making a masterkey system was insignificant. I generally offer them a copy of the information in these cases, but I do it out of a sense of customer service, not obligation.

Usually though, generating a system takes some time (and therefore money) and I charge a fee for the service. In these cases, I think they certainly deserve a copy of the information that they paid for. To me it's the ethical thing to do, even if it's not a legal obligation in your area.

I know some locksmiths who flatly refuse to give the customer a keying chart/bitting list, even if the customer has paid to have the masterkey system generated. I suspect some locksmiths who refuse to give the customer that information, do it out of a feeling of insecurity, and are trying to trap the customer and force them to keep coming back to that locksmith for all their locksmithing services. They claim it's for the customer's security, since most customers don't seem to have the good sense to keep that information locked up. In my opinion though, while I agree most customers are rather lax with security on that sort of information, if they have paid for that service, they deserve a full copy of the information. I can try to educate them in the importance of keeping the information secure, but it's not my job to force them to keep it secure any more than it's my job to show up every night at closing time and force them to lock their doors.

In short, if the customer didn't pay for it, it's locksmith's choice whether to give out the information. If the customer did pay for the service, that information is their property and can't be withheld.

[magician59]

Contractors (and probably not a few locksmiths as well) often re-use pinning systems. If not just for the bitting chart, sometimes they even use them for the same manufacturer keyway families; for different companies.

Case in point: I locksmithed for a school district here in Texas. When I started, there were no key records to speak of, so I measured every key I duplicated; decoded every cylinder I serviced; and recorded everything I could. After about three and a half years of this, I had enough information to reverse-engineer the various master key systems, and discovered a great grand master system which existed in a dozen of my oldest campuses. (When I started, every maintenance man carried about 40 master keys [one for each campus]). What I discovered drastically reduced their load.

It was about that time, that I also discovered, quite accidentally, that our GGM systen was SHARED by a nearby hospital (Hmmmm...must have been supplied by the same contractor??)

Just food for thought, guys.

[steveslock]

No setup charge for any master key system, it takes 2 seconds in our software. We charge more per cylinder for master keying and that's it. Never handed over a bitting list to a customer.

[selim]

Very well said MBI, I agree fully. There is a company, that sold systems to a few of the building suppy co. that I work for new customer's. He refuses to give the list's to them.

That makes it hard for me to make new changes, for fear of a change that is already there. I tell these customers that they paid for them, and they are yous, but have only seen one person get his bitting list.

selim