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Hey .

So, I've been doing some research on the S&G 951. Actually on a few of the S&G locks. At some point I'm hoping to collect the 951, 833, 831, 826C and 826D. Options are sparse for buying, especially in the condition that I would ideally like as a collector, but it's a fun journey .

My current bugbear is the 951. Up until today all I knew is that there are two versions:

* The 951, which is provided to US Military, and
* The 951C, which uses a different core (non restricted) and is supplied to the general public.

Now, you can find both of these. SecuritySnobs sells the 951C for just over $1,300, and the 951 can sometimes be found on eBay and the like. My main difficulty has been distinguishing the 951 from the 951C, especially from afar in an eBay listing. The other issue, which I only learned today, is that there are actually three cores in use:

The D4 keyway, for active US Military
The R1 keyway, for US Mil Contractors, and
The S1 keyway, which is for public/commercial sale.

I'm assuming that you can find both the D4 or the R1 in a 951 body, and the S1 in a 951C body. However of course on eBay a Mil body may have had its core replaced with an S1, or vice versa.

What I'm trying to figure out is:

1. How can you tell a 951 from a 951C? Are there any distinguishing marks on the key, body, or core that would identify one from the other?)
2. How can you tell an R1 or D4 cylinder from an S1? and
3. How can you tell the R1 and D4 from each other?

Here are some things that I've found out so far, which may or may not apply to all locks and may be incorrect for certain years etc, I'm not sure how true this is or how widely it applies:

1. At least some military body 951 locks have "US Government Property" stamped on the BACK of the lock. (Opposite side to the US Model 951 <Year> stamped on the reverse side)

2. Military (restricted) keyways have "US Military Property. Do not Dup" stamped onto them. Not sure if this applies to all, or just R1/D4?

3. Military cores are green (teflon coated?) whereas commercial are brass? (Least sure about this fact as I've heard conflicting evidence). Not sure whether this applies to all of them, or just the R1 or D4.

4. The Military bodies (951) have a UID stamped into both halves of the body to thwart destruction and recreation attacks, I'm not sure if the non-mil ones also have this number or ever whether all the mil ones do.

I'm also not sure whether all 951/951C cylinders have the Medeco Biaxial cylinder or whether some might have the regular Medeco? Also I've seen some videos where there is an anti-drill rod that you can access from the back of the core via a set screw, not sure if this is Mil. core only / just a Biaxial thing?

Some Medeco based padlocks such as the Hi-Shear and the 826 padlocks come with a little metal key tag that says something like "Control key, Do not issue, For maintenance use only". I'm not sure if the 951 is "supposed" to come with one of these new, but I've only ever seen them being sold with the plastic Medeco keycode card. Do those metal cards come with 951 locks or is that a deprecated feature?

Any knowledge or light that anyone could shed on this would be gratefully appreciated. I'd love to pick up one of these but I want to make sure that I'm buying what I expect, and I'd like to know what additional pictures I should be requesting to determine these details when contacting sellers. As an aside, if anybody has one of these that they want to sell, pop me a PM! Ideally I'd like it with the original box (AFAIK these S&Gs all come with a "To be opened by authorised security personnel only" box), operating instructions, chain, three keys including square head Control key, key fobs/tags, and it should be a 951 with the D4 (or R1, not sure of the difference) core, body stamped with UIDs and "US Government Property" on the back. I know that's a big ask and I realise I'll likely have to "settle" for less when I do eventually pick up one of these, but it's to be my centerpiece jewel of my S&G Military locks and probably my whole collection so the closer to this, the better.

(I'm also looking for an 831, 826C and 826D, just sayin' )

Some resources / research links:

Photos showing the US Government Property stamp

Info on the keyways

A bit more info

Adrian Weber's video about his 951 (Including info on the UID stamping, and green core).

Another Adrian Weber video, this one about the 951's core (and that rod)

Screenshot of the body number stamp




Bonus round! - Some questions about other S&G locks:

1. Are the 826C and 826D supposed to come with the standard Medeco military compliment of three keys, two being round-bow Operation keys and one being a square headed Control key? I've seen auctions with various permutations including 2 keys (both round, one control and one operator) and 3 keys (all round bow, 2 operator and 1 control)

2. Which locks and/or cores are supposed to come with the metal key tag regarding "Control key, do not issue" - I've seen these at least with the Hi-shear, 833 and either 826C or 826D, but not sure if the same applies for the other of the 826, the 831 and the 951

3. Are all of these supposed to come with an S&G operations sheet (user manual)?

4. Do the 831, 833, and 826 variants come in a military and non-military version similar to the 951/C? And if so, what are the variants and how do we verify them?

5. I've noticed the 833 referred to as an 833C - is this the same as the 951 in that it comes in military (833) and civilian (833C) variants? What about the 831?

6. Are there any identifying features that I should look for in an 826 or 831 to tell which version is which? (such as the "US Government Property" or UID stamps on the 951)

Phew! Lot of questions I know. If it's any consolation, by filling in any of the blanks you'll be helping everyone

What, no love for the 826A?

I am guessing that the 951C will not have "US Property" molded into the front of the upper half of the lock like the military ones do.




The very early ones only came with 2 round bow keys. This is in the very early 70s though. Later ones came with 3 keys but operating keys can easily be made into control keys.



Again, it depends on the issue date. I had some 826/831 cores new in the box that came with tags, and others that did not.



Yes. I have one 826A with the box and instruction sheet. The 826 instructions are very rare. I also have a new 831 without the box that has the instruction sheet.



I am guessing the only way would be to check the keyway in regards to the 831 and 826 but I know the 826s were sold to civilians.



Nope.

Oh, sure thing - I've not ever seen one for sale though so I wrote them off as a myth .
Yeah, that's what I'm hoping. I've got my eye on one that I've asked the seller to take a photo of the back of. Getting very excited .
Is there any way to tell from the key or cylinder whether it's a D4, R1 or S1? (I assume that the S1 will have fairly "blank" medeco keys similar to These and the D4 and/or R1 will have something with more stuff on it (US Mil Do Not Dup.) like These?

Ooh more info! Thank you . Gah, I was afraid it'd be a big mix of depends-on-issue-date and no-identifying-marks. They don't make it easy for us

Ok, how about 826C padlocks with the 826A shackle variant? I have a few of those kicking around as well

The only way to be sure would be to have the known keyways and keys sitting in front of you and comparing them to pictures I think. There is no keyway markings anywhere on the key or core although it is on the box label on replacement cores.

I've never seen replacement (military) cores for sale - are there any sources around for those or is is a case of "snap them up on eBay when you get a chance"? Alternative to getting one new with all the original keys would be to get one lacking keys and a shiny new core to go with it .

Wouldn't an 826C with 826A shackle just be an 826A? IIRC they're the same body (Link)
Edit: Just re watched the video and he mentioned there being an 826C in a rarer version with the stainless shackle, so that clear that up

For the 831/826 they are really rare and usually sell for $50+ when they do pop up. There was a seller that had a ton of 833 cores a while back but he only shipped to the USA and sold out a while ago. A few members here bought some and I still have a few left.

It is actually stamped 826C but has the thin shackle. No idea why they were made that way but they are around.

Edit: You may find this website helpful. http://www.antique-padlocks.com/hs.htm

*nods* I can imagine them flying off the shelves like hotcakes.
Strange - I guess it was for a specific order or purpose? I've not really researched the 826s much so I don't know a great deal about them at the mo'.
That link is very cool, thank you! I should probably head to bed soon (6:25am here, got a bit carried away researching S&Gs ) but I'll give it a thorough look over in the morning (afternoon? ) - thank you!

http://m.ebay.com/itm/Sargent-and-Green ... ING_ACTIVE

No touching ¬_¬
Hehe
I sent a message out to them yesterday asking for some extra photos, they actually replied within like 3 mins and said they would take a look today, so I'm super stoked. From what I can tell, it's a military one (951). No way of knowing if it's R1 or D4 though.

It doesn't seem to have the instructions sheet, original box or metal key card (not sure if the 951s have ever had these, though) but apart from that...

Good price too considering that Securitysnobs want $1,300+ for a 951C

Probably a military one indeed. My wife would kill me if I bought that. Judging by his other items and location that one is from Ft. Bragg lol

Aye, I know the feeling. Wonder if I'll be able to convince the missus that £600 for a padlock (a really awesome padlock) is a good idea :/ hah
That's interesting.. I wonder if it's his, or if he has a Mil. friend who can obtain these for him .

Damn james, if you had posted this a couple months ago I could have sent you one that was in great condition

Ah! Story of my life . I keep finding 951s on eBay's completed listing search, as part of my researching, that ended anywhere from a couple of months to a couple of years ago in awesome condition with all the gubbins etc. Always a case of being in the right place at the right time .

I ended up buying the one DTW linked above directly from the seller - after corresponding with the seller for more details the specs and price seemed right . Just keeping my fingers crossed now that it's everything I'd hoped!