MCS Pick??

[huxleypig]

RE: Magnet strength and behaviour

The magnets on the MCS key are NOT that strong. I just compared them to a smaller N52 strength magnet that I have and they're about 1/2 the strength. This is good news because it tells me that the magnet on the one side of my pick has less chance of interfering with the magnet on the other side of the key.

I have also managed to 'read' my key. This tells me that the magnets on the MCS key behave in the way that I thought they did, which is, again, good news.

[10ringo10]

Good news indeed,if the key can be read , and you can work out the possible magnetic position in the keyway.

[huxleypig]

RE: Key Reading, Make Up Keys and Binding Order

OK, so the first thing I noticed was in LSS+ it states that it is not possible to read an existing key and thus make your own. I can categorically state that this is NOT right - I have 'read' my key and from this it is perfectly feasible to create a key using magnets on a make up key. If you wanted you could merely superglue magnets in the right position on a strip of metal. Of course, you'd have to copy the slider marks too on the top and on the bottom. This will probably be my first project when my magnets arrive. Making myself a spare key! If anyone can tell me why I am wrong on this then please do so because I do not see why this would not work.

Secondly the binding order. My honourable friends in Germany tell me that the sliders bind first and then the rotors. However, I have not found this to be the case. First off the ball bearing binds. The key retaining one near the mouth of the lock. I believe the other one near the back of the lock is a passive defence and will only protrude in to the keyway when the plug turns. Once the ball bearing is pushed into place I can find no sliders that are binding. It would be amiss of me to say that the are not binding whatsoever only that I, as yet, have not noticed any. It is hard to tell if one of the rotors is binding next because I do not have a magnet with which to test/turn them with yet.

[10ringo10]

Great work hp.

[barbarian]

RE: Key Reading, Make Up Keys and Binding Order

OK, so the first thing I noticed was in LSS+ it states that it is not possible to read an existing key and thus make your own...........

I'm very interested in your progress. I dug out my copy and I can't find where they say this.

They do say that you can't read the backs of the rotors from the keyway and get any info. They also say you can't make a copy of a key due to the complexity of creating identical magnets like the factory use.. But they sort of show the key being read using the magnetic field viewing film.

[huxleypig]

RE: Key Reading, Make Up Keys and Binding Order

OK, so the first thing I noticed was in LSS+ it states that it is not possible to read an existing key and thus make your own...........

I'm very interested in your progress. I dug out my copy and I can't find where they say this.

They do say that you can't read the backs of the rotors from the keyway and get any info. They also say you can't make a copy of a key due to the complexity of creating identical magnets like the factory use.. But they sort of show the key being read using the magnetic field viewing film.

Exactly - they bloody well show that it's possible to read the key!! From my version of LSS+ (I added my bits in red):

- The lock features four separate layers of security, two of
which (magnets) are interrelated in such a way that the
replication of magnetic fields (on opposing sides of the
key) would present significant technical difficulties to
accomplish;
Yes, it would be very difficult to replicate the magnetic fields the same way that EVVA do it- by creating a single magnet with 2 different polarities on each end BUT this is very easily got around by simply using 2 different magnets back to back! Not touching each other I hasten to add but this could be done also with a strong adhesive.

- Complete factory control of the generation of all keys;
Agreed

- Extreme difficulty in simulating a key for an MCS cylinder;
See above

- No MCS key can be copied, duplicated, replicated or
simulated without sophisticated, expensive, and proprietary
technology;
Not so IMO, magnets and superglue will do! I intend to copy my key or at least simulate it by using one or both of the methods above (2 0.5mm magnets on a piece of thin metal - (maybe iron) or 2 1mm magnets superglued to each other directly, back to back) The slider configuration will also need to be copied or simulated but this is doable either with a bit of wire, or a plasticene copy or whatever really...

[barbarian]

Is there a good source for the locks ??

I have a couple of ideas I would like to try. I've never seen a used mcs for sale.

[huxleypig]

Good question! Not unless you have a spare £200 or know of someone throwing one away...Good luck.

[huxleypig]

RE: Binding Order 2 and magnet manipulation

Ok, so I've been playing some more. After taking onboard what our German friends told me, I've simulated the shape for the top sliders using a bobby pin (works nicely) from the key. If this was going to be done using an unknown lock then they COULD be picked but if the sliders are not kept in place when the plug is turned then you can find yourself ceasing the lock up because they'll slip into little gaps in the plug housing! Believe me, I know. So therefore the best solution here would be to read them like you would read a wafer lock and then make a simulated copy. However, with the MCS key that I'm looking at (and every other one I've ever seen) the sliders on the top and bottom are in the same place (alternating left/right starting on the right as you look into the lock). Our German friends also say this is the case with every one that they have seen too. If this is right then the same simulated bit could be used for every lock.

Ok, so the sliders are in the right place along the top. The 1st thing to bind is the ball bearing and so push this down and then the sliders on the bottom will stick. As there are only 3 along the bottom you can get away with picking these into place. What I said earlier about them getting stuck in the housing without being anchored depends which way you turn the lock. So if the top sliders are ok and anchored then turning the plug clockwise should be ok (this might not be quite correct though). If this is wrong then a 2nd simulated slider 'pick' can be easily made for the bottom sliders.

Now the plug will turn one hell of a lot. Maybe 20 degrees! At this point the rotor sidebars will lock. This large amount of rotation is because the legs of the sidebar push into the discs and even if they are not in the right place they tilt, giving a little more room to give. However, it still isn't quite enough to allow the plug to turn but it is VERY close. I believe that at this point a destructive attack could be implemented simply by applying a moderate amount of turning force to the plug. If anyone wants to try this and kill their MCS then by all means let me know!!

The trouble is that once you are at this point with the rotors tilted they block any radial movement via manipulation with a magnet (not that I have the 'proper' magnets yet). Releasing tension a little will free up the rotors but I'm still experimenting with how much tension you need to let off so that one will bind but not be stuck. I am sure that a middle ground exists. If so then telling which one is binding is tough. If the rotor sticks then the magnet manipulating it will also 'stick' (well, return to the same place if turned) but with the magnets I'm currently using this is virtually impossible to tell. So until the proper magnets arrive I'm experimenting with a 'magnetic rake'. 4 magnets glued to a very thin strip of metal that are used to jiggle the rotors around randomly. I am hoping to use this to find the perfect 'binding point'

Pics to follow...

[10ringo10]

ive heard this before somewhere,but they suggested melting the plastic in the plug while applying force for a destructive openning.
good to learn theres so much give in the plug.

[huxleypig]

ive heard this before somewhere,but they suggested melting the plastic in the plug while applying force for a destructive openning.
good to learn theres so much give in the plug.

Oh yeah, I've never seen so much rotation but that's just cos of how the sidebar works - as in it slides forward anyway instead of being either in or out. More of an analogue sidebar than digital one if you see what I mean!

As many of the inner workings are plastic heating could indeed work, it'd push the sidebar pins into the rotors effectively making a new gate. With the rotors being plastic too I think they would give with a moderate amount of pressure. Buckle, bend or snap enough to turn the plug.

[datagram]

Just a quick note, what you are suggesting exists and does not make it any easier to pick the lock. Tobias' note about the keys applies to making an actual copy/duplicate of the key. It is not hard to simulate a key for the magnetic bitting, the Germans even have pseudo setup keys, and the sliders are easy enough to position correctly.

dg

[10ringo10]

How many set up keys,relating to magnets or sliders. thanks
are you saying the germans have picked the mcs,and or decoded it ?

[huxleypig]

Just a quick note, what you are suggesting exists and does not make it any easier to pick the lock. Tobias' note about the keys applies to making an actual copy/duplicate of the key. It is not hard to simulate a key for the magnetic bitting, the Germans even have pseudo setup keys, and the sliders are easy enough to position correctly.

dg

What bit of what I said exists? Do you mean the make up key type thing?

I'm sure Tobias says it's almost impossible to simulate a key?

By the way, I'm still waiting for the magnets, it's a turnaround time of 90 days or summat daft!

[datagram]

What bit of what I said exists? Do you mean the make up key type thing?

I'm sure Tobias says it's almost impossible to simulate a key?

By the way, I'm still waiting for the magnets, it's a turnaround time of 90 days or summat daft!

The original idea of a rotating magnet tool to position magnets. To ringo, there are setup keys which can be used to position the magnets inside the lock correctly IF you know the correct key bitting. A setup key usually refers to a simulated key which has replaceable/movable bittings to enable you to create a key with an arbitrary bitting code to open the lock. There is no public information on any tools which will decode or open the MCS without knowledge of the working key bitting.

dg