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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

Posts: 4412

Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2011 3:16 pm

Location: Michigan

Post Sun Mar 10, 2019 1:15 am

Re: Members Say Hi

Welcome! Sounds like a hell-of-a project!

Hope to see some pictures along the way.

Glad you're here.
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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Kiros

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Newbie

Posts: 1

Joined: Sun Mar 17, 2019 8:55 am

Post Sun Mar 17, 2019 9:00 am

Re: Members Say Hi

Hi, I'm 35, I have been watching lock picking videos on utub for a few years and finally ordered a pick set that was recommended in a video, I think I have some old door locks somewhere in the house, eagerly awaiting the delivery.
I'm trying to find a source of locks to try out here in Melbourne Australia.
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terminallytransient

Newbie

Posts: 3

Joined: Tue Mar 19, 2019 6:35 pm

Post Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:58 am

Re: Members Say Hi

Terminally Transient here, I rediscovered my old picks from back when I was in uni XX years ago, trying to get back into it and seeing if this old dog can pick up some new tricks. It seems a lot more difficult now than back then.
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Flanker_27K

Newbie

Posts: 5

Joined: Fri Apr 26, 2019 7:28 pm

Location: France

Post Fri Apr 26, 2019 8:22 pm

Re: Members Say Hi

Hello everyone!

I'm Olivier from France, I ran into this forum when looking for reviews about the locks I wanted to install on my future house, and decided to make an account here: if I can look at what I'm buying from the "opponent's" side, then it'll be easier to find something efficient.
Apart from that, I'm 38, am married with 2 kids, and work in insurance sales.

Have a nice day!
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Oldfast

User avatar

OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

Posts: 4412

Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2011 3:16 pm

Location: Michigan

Post Sat Apr 27, 2019 1:50 am

Re: Members Say Hi

Welcome folks!
Hope to see ya around.
It's wonderful place here.

Olivier, I applaud your efforts in doing some research
before purchasing locks for you home. That's more
than you can say for most I'd imagine. Keep at it.
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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Flanker_27K

Newbie

Posts: 5

Joined: Fri Apr 26, 2019 7:28 pm

Location: France

Post Sat Apr 27, 2019 1:28 pm

Re: Members Say Hi

Thanks! Yeah, I figured it'd be good to actually know about what I'm looking for... I've been choosing way too much things at the random, and am trying to correct this.
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MacNutz 42

Newbie

Posts: 2

Joined: Mon May 06, 2019 10:37 am

Post Mon May 06, 2019 10:57 am

Re: Members Say Hi

Greetings all. I am about as new as one can be to this, in spite of being ancient of days. I have finally out grown building and painting scale model airplanes and need a new hobby. I've been watching a lot of Youtube videos. I like to do some research before I start spending money. I don't want to buy things I don't need or won't need until I have developed some skills.
I have come to learn and ask questions as I have no pretense of knowledge. I'm not strong enough to learn black smithing, my sensitive little hands may be perfect for this, or not.
I look forward to learning many new things about something I have always had some curiosity about.
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alan

Newbie

Posts: 4

Joined: Tue May 07, 2019 7:34 pm

Location: Phoenix

Post Tue May 07, 2019 8:21 pm

Re: Members Say Hi

Hi! I'm Alan from the Phoenix, AZ area. My main interest in locks stems from my own lock invention.
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Oldfast

User avatar

OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

Posts: 4412

Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2011 3:16 pm

Location: Michigan

Post Tue May 07, 2019 11:03 pm

Re: Members Say Hi

MacNutz 42 wrote:Greetings all. I am about as new as one can be to this, in spite of being ancient of days. I have finally out grown building and painting scale model airplanes and need a new hobby. I've been watching a lot of Youtube videos. I like to do some research before I start spending money. I don't want to buy things I don't need or won't need until I have developed some skills.
I have come to learn and ask questions as I have no pretense of knowledge. I'm not strong enough to learn black smithing, my sensitive little hands may be perfect for this, or not.
I look forward to learning many new things about something I have always had some curiosity about.

A big welcome to you sir. I'm Mike. You've come to a good place to get started. You'll have to search around a bit... but I know there's some threads on purchasing lock picks as well as on some startup reading. And as you've mentioned, youtube is an incredible source as well.

alan wrote:Hi! I'm Alan from the Phoenix, AZ area. My main interest in locks stems from my own lock invention.

Welcome Alan. Glad you're here. I'm sure we all would love to hear more about this when you're ready.
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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MHM

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Familiar Face

Posts: 222

Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2016 8:33 pm

Location: Napier, New Zealand

Post Wed May 08, 2019 5:26 am

Re: Members Say Hi

Welcome to the group, both of you guys.

@MacNutz - ask as many questions as you like - that's literally what this board is for.

@Alan - what's your invention?
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MacNutz 42

Newbie

Posts: 2

Joined: Mon May 06, 2019 10:37 am

Post Wed May 08, 2019 6:19 am

Re: Members Say Hi

Thanks guys. I will ask. I have been watching many videos by people like LPL and Bosnian Bill. They seem super legit. They have both created and answered a number of questions. I have ideas about what I need to get started comfortably. I shall find the place to talk about the specifics of what I am thinking of.
I am big on sticking to basics at the beginning of any new study or effort. I can imagine there are some Master locks in my near future.
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alan

Newbie

Posts: 4

Joined: Tue May 07, 2019 7:34 pm

Location: Phoenix

Post Wed May 08, 2019 8:16 pm

Re: Members Say Hi

MHM wrote:Welcome to the group, both of you guys.
@Alan - what's your invention?


Thanks for the welcome. Let me explain my invention, and ask a question.

I have a new key core design. Briefly, its strengths are very high security at low cost. I've already filed for a patent, and am in the process of building a prototype.

This lock is provably bump-proof. It is extremely pick resistance (perhaps even Bowley lock difficult). I do not believe any impressioning will be possible. It is highly resistant to force because of inherently robust parts, and is designed to be made easily drill resistant with a single anti-drill pin.

Please assume for a minute that all of the above is true: this is a bump-proof, virtually pick proof, robust deadbolt at roughly Home Depot Kwikset/Schlage/Yale prices. Would it be commercially advantageous to have such a lock which also has a pretty conventional looking inexpensive key that can be easily copied on conventional key cutters? That is, does it make sense to market a lock with superior security, but an easily and cheaply copied key?
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MHM

User avatar

Familiar Face

Posts: 222

Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2016 8:33 pm

Location: Napier, New Zealand

Post Thu May 09, 2019 3:21 am

Re: Members Say Hi

alan wrote:
MHM wrote:Welcome to the group, both of you guys.
@Alan - what's your invention?


Thanks for the welcome. Let me explain my invention, and ask a question.

I have a new key core design. Briefly, its strengths are very high security at low cost. I've already filed for a patent, and am in the process of building a prototype.

This lock is provably bump-proof. It is extremely pick resistance (perhaps even Bowley lock difficult). I do not believe any impressioning will be possible. It is highly resistant to force because of inherently robust parts, and is designed to be made easily drill resistant with a single anti-drill pin.

Please assume for a minute that all of the above is true: this is a bump-proof, virtually pick proof, robust deadbolt at roughly Home Depot Kwikset/Schlage/Yale prices. Would it be commercially advantageous to have such a lock which also has a pretty conventional looking inexpensive key that can be easily copied on conventional key cutters? That is, does it make sense to market a lock with superior security, but an easily and cheaply copied key?


Wow that's a really interesting question Alan.

First I'll answer as a businessman: No-one is going to sell a better product at a budget price, it doesn't make any kind of sense. A premium lock MUST be sold at a premium price...thus, if your system really is good then you (or more likely a major manufacturer under licence) would manufacture it for cheap, sell at the top end of the market, and reap the better margins. (There's not really a lot of margin in the low end security hardware stuff, which is why most of it is now made in China as cheaply and nastily as possible - I'm not suggesting that you should do that of course.)

Second, the key. If you want the product to be taken seriously by manufacturers, locksmiths, and consumers, then key control is mandatory. A high security lock with an easily copyable key...is not a high security lock. Manufacturers spend an awful lot of time and money adding complex features to keys for exactly this reason, and you'd need to do the same. From the locksmith's point of view it's a very good thing if he can cut a key for your system on his existing machine, BUT you would absolutely have to make sure that the blanks he cuts the key from are unique, patented, and ONLY available from you. This is why the major high security lock makers make a HUGE deal out of patenting their special key blanks, and then when the patent is close to expiry they add an extra feature to extend the patent and keep the system (and the profits) secure. If you think that this sounds like the pharmaceutical industry, you'd be correct.

I'd love to have a look at your new design once you have a working prototype...

Best wishes,

Michael.
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alan

Newbie

Posts: 4

Joined: Tue May 07, 2019 7:34 pm

Location: Phoenix

Post Thu May 09, 2019 8:52 pm

Re: Members Say Hi

MHM wrote:
alan wrote:
MHM wrote:Welcome to the group, both of you guys.
@Alan - what's your invention?


Thanks for the welcome. Let me explain my invention, and ask a question.

I have a new key core design. Briefly, its strengths are very high security at low cost. I've already filed for a patent, and am in the process of building a prototype.

This lock is provably bump-proof. It is extremely pick resistance (perhaps even Bowley lock difficult). I do not believe any impressioning will be possible. It is highly resistant to force because of inherently robust parts, and is designed to be made easily drill resistant with a single anti-drill pin.

Please assume for a minute that all of the above is true: this is a bump-proof, virtually pick proof, robust deadbolt at roughly Home Depot Kwikset/Schlage/Yale prices. Would it be commercially advantageous to have such a lock which also has a pretty conventional looking inexpensive key that can be easily copied on conventional key cutters? That is, does it make sense to market a lock with superior security, but an easily and cheaply copied key?


Wow that's a really interesting question Alan.

First I'll answer as a businessman: No-one is going to sell a better product at a budget price, it doesn't make any kind of sense. A premium lock MUST be sold at a premium price...thus, if your system really is good then you (or more likely a major manufacturer under licence) would manufacture it for cheap, sell at the top end of the market, and reap the better margins. (There's not really a lot of margin in the low end security hardware stuff, which is why most of it is now made in China as cheaply and nastily as possible - I'm not suggesting that you should do that of course.)

Second, the key. If you want the product to be taken seriously by manufacturers, locksmiths, and consumers, then key control is mandatory. A high security lock with an easily copyable key...is not a high security lock. Manufacturers spend an awful lot of time and money adding complex features to keys for exactly this reason, and you'd need to do the same. From the locksmith's point of view it's a very good thing if he can cut a key for your system on his existing machine, BUT you would absolutely have to make sure that the blanks he cuts the key from are unique, patented, and ONLY available from you. This is why the major high security lock makers make a HUGE deal out of patenting their special key blanks, and then when the patent is close to expiry they add an extra feature to extend the patent and keep the system (and the profits) secure. If you think that this sounds like the pharmaceutical industry, you'd be correct.

I'd love to have a look at your new design once you have a working prototype...

Best wishes,

Michael.


Thank you so much for the thoughtful and informative reply, Michael. Much appreciated! I understand that the low manufacturing cost is primarily a profit advantage, and not a low cost volume advantage. I am more than happy to take such advantage!

An aside, but I LOVE your country. Spent three weeks exploring both islands a couple years ago and had a fabulous time. Do you ever get to Arizona? Now, back to the lock...

I actually started with a very patentable key, but then realized the patentable feature was counterproductive to security. That is, once I carefully studied the multitude of picking techniques on various lock picking sites like this, I realized the extra internal pins that would create the additional patentable feature on the key blank was both easily enough picked, and weakened the internals against other attacks. I do not see an easy way to add any other patentable device patent to the key blank, but I suspect I could pursue a design patent on the key as is. Design patents regarding how something looks are much weaker than device or process patents that protect functionality or purpose. I'm not sure I want to go back to the prior design to get a patent on the key blank, knowing that it creates a small decrease in lock security, although there is a tradeoff of usefulness that should keep it patentable. I suppose that could be an option to anyone wanting to license the design. This should be a great discussion I'll be having with my patent attorney soon.

The current key certainly does not look like a conventional key, but will not appear out of place on any kind of key ring, and it is similar enough to easily fit into a conventional key cutter. The bidding is quite unique, but well within the envelope of what a standard cutter can cut. The bidding is very easily noticed by a locksmith at arm's length, but will not likely be noticed by a layperson at all. I suspect the cut key is patentable (as a device) due to the unique bidding, but not the blank. I could easily be wrong about the patentability.

Note that having a blank does not make the lock less secure. Impressioning and bumping and other techniques that can make a blank useful to a lock picker simply will not help with this lock. Homemade blanks will not be particularly hard to make, as the key outline and keyway is not complex. The patentable blank idea only adds the need for a few cuts with a thin Dremel saw for a homemade blank. Since even a homemade blank would be a patent infringement, it could easily restrict all legally made blanks to what I or a patent licensee makes available. That is, it may be more like the pharmaceutical industry than desired. Like many drugs, these key blanks would be easy to duplicate, only not legally. I would think the bearings and magnets and off-axis machining and such on some of the more uniquely protected key blanks are also very important, more so than just being unique, patented and *legally* available only from me.

This lock has radically different kind of pins than anything else, but are fairly easily manufacturable, easily adopted to master keying, and easier for a locksmith to rekey than most other cores other than user-rekeyable designs like the Kwikset Smartkey.

I haven't, however, figured out how to do construction keying yet. I hope to figure it out, but a ball bearing technique is not going to do it. I'm thinking it will take a common de-construction key that will convert any construction core from the construction key to the owner key with a simple insertion and turn. Not quite as simple as being completely automatic with the first use of the owner key, but do you think this would be generally acceptable for the purpose?
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MHM

User avatar

Familiar Face

Posts: 222

Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2016 8:33 pm

Location: Napier, New Zealand

Post Sat May 11, 2019 8:56 am

Re: Members Say Hi

Boy this is getting fascinating.

A lot of this key-related stuff is best worked out by whoever you licence the design to - there are engineers whose sole job is to figure out how to make keying systems work. But in general, the manufacturer will see patenting features of the key as being at LEAST as important as the lock itself. It really is a big deal, not least because it safeguards the company's profits. Us lock nerds often get wrapped up in the lock itself and forget that the big manufacturers are NOT lock makers at heart. They're just publically traded businesses with shareholders demanding a return on their investment...that just happen to make security products. They ain't in love with the lock, they're enamoured with the bottom line.

As far as construction keying is concerned, I can't imagine that a system that wanted a one-and-done key to be used to disable the construction keying would be out of the question - locksmiths are familiar with the concept of a control key and you're just suggesting a variation on that. Another system particularly beloved by our Oriental brethren is to have a small breakaway element that is snapped off by the owner's key on first use. Imagine a two part keypin, which is sheared in two when the owner first turns his key. The sheared off portion drops into a hole in the core in the same way that lost balls do. Another thing to consider is that many high security locks just don't support construction keying, full stop. It isn't a deal breaker.

Just be aware that bringing an entirely new lock design to market by yourself is a phenomenally, astronomically, difficult thing to do. A guy in my part of the world has done it twice...but he's a freak of nature. If I had just one piece of advice to give you, it would be to sell or licence your idea to one of the big guys and on no account try to do all the manufacturing yourself.

FWIW.
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