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Getting started with manipulation

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MartinHewitt

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Post Wed Feb 21, 2018 4:59 pm

Re: Getting started with manipulation

I would say that this is normally the case with the 6730, but the 3330 is more variable.
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt
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femurat

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Post Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:15 am

Re: Getting started with manipulation

It's been a while since I updated this thread, but I found a nice visual explanation on how to read the dial. It's an aspect that I didn't cover in detail and it may be useful for a beginner.

I hope you're ok with me quoting you here, L4R3L2.

Cheers :)

L4R3L2 wrote:O.K. I hope this helps. Thicknesses of lines vary lock to lock. Some index lines are pointed. You just have to come up with a visual system to subdivide to eighths, and stick with it consistently for the lock you're working on. Even if what you decide to call 1/8 is not really precisely 1/8, as long as you are consistent and graph accordingly, that is what counts.

Like I said, locks differ, but here is an example of one dial and index subdivision.

1/8: index centered over right edge of number line
Image

1/4: left edge of index lined up with right edge of number line
Image

3/8: index just barely off center to left, but not enough to call 1/4
Image

1/2: index centered
Image

5/8: index just barely off center to right, but not enough to call 3/4
Image

3/4: right edge of index lined up with left edge of number line
Image

7/8: index centered over left edge of number line
Image
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MartinHewitt

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Post Tue Nov 20, 2018 11:22 am

Re: Getting started with manipulation

I do the same, but I would structure the readings as halving, which is easy to do.

Halve of 40 and 41 -> 40 4/8.
Halve of 40 and 40 4/8 -> 40 2/8
Halve of 40 and 40 2/8 -> 40 1/8
and so on
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt
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L4R3L2

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Post Sat Nov 24, 2018 9:46 am

Re: Getting started with manipulation

femurat wrote:
I hope you're ok with me quoting you here, L4R3L2.


More than OK, it's gratifying that someone thought it might be helpful. Thank you.
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

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Post Wed Nov 28, 2018 6:32 pm

Re: Getting started with manipulation

Definitely a good addition to an already great write-up for those looking to get a start.

I think many have a difficult time cultivating an eye for the division of an increment.
Some seem to have a micrometer eye for it right from the start and have no trouble.
For me, I know I struggled some and it certainly took some time and effort. And, it'll
vary with each dial too as to how you're going to divvy up an inc. Great stuff guys.
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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MartinHewitt

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Post Wed Nov 28, 2018 9:23 pm

Re: Getting started with manipulation

I found the dials with thicker lines easier to read. 0/8 is obvious. 4/8 is in the middle between two lines. That is for all the same. With thicker lines the middle of the opening index on the edge of a number line is 2/8 and 6/8. A bit left and right is then the rest.
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt
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cpe1704tks

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Post Wed Jan 13, 2021 1:53 am

Re: Getting started with manipulation

I have trouble reading the contacts point and worked up a low-tech approach for making the readings. Anyone interested in a write up with photos of the setup?
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MartinHewitt

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Post Wed Jan 13, 2021 11:13 am

Re: Getting started with manipulation

Of course!
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt
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cpe1704tks

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Post Thu Jan 14, 2021 1:06 am

Re: Getting started with manipulation

I have trouble discerning one-eighth increments when measuring the contact point displacements. While others have used high-tech approaches (webcams with high resolutions), I tried a low-tech approach, What I needed was something that amplified the displacement and was easy to read. What I ended up using was a twelve inch bamboo skewer attached to the safe dial with a small piece of double-sided adhesive foam tape and a hand-drawn scale for left and right contact points. I color coded each (orange for right and green for left) and also color coded which flat on the dial was used for each measurement to ensure I used precisely the same pressure for each measurement. First a picture of the whole setup. (And I do apologize for my poor photography.)

PICT0777.JPG


Next the attachment to the dial. Note that the attachment point on the skewer is roughly half way to allow it to pass the handle below the dial. It is also attached in the crook of one of the flats to ensure is does not change during handling and is back far enough to not interfere with dial rotations. Originally I used a flat that had the skewer horizontal during contact readings, but found it more difficult to read, so I changed it to a flat that positioned it roughly vertical during contact measurement.

PICT0816.JPG
PICT0808.JPG
PICT0799.JPG


Now for the reference scale. I happened to have some corrugated cardboard that closely matched the depth of the dial flat. I cut a piece lartge enough for two post-it sheets and peeled off portions of the top corners to allow magnets to hold it onto the safe door surface.

PICT0824.JPG


I used two post-it sheets to enhance the legibility. I positioned the piece such that both contact points could be read and applied the color code dots to match those on the dial face to denote which flat to use for left and right contact point measurements. I then used a pocket measuring rule to draw a straight line out from the point of the skewer at each whole digit around each contact point. Then I used the pocket rule to mark the midpoint between each and then again bisected each of those half-way marks to give me quarter-way increments. No marks for eights as the quarter marks were sufficent to easily discern eighth or even sixteenth increments.

PICT0769.JPG


Hope this might be of value to thers that have difficult ascertaining the contact deflections. My thanks to Jared Dygert for his book, paper, andvideos one the subject.
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MHM

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Post Thu Jan 14, 2021 1:41 am

Re: Getting started with manipulation

Well done mate. What you did there was - broadly speaking - called "amplifying the indications" for obvious reasons. There a number of time honoured ways of doing this, and every now and again a locksmith will design and sell a slightly new gadget which is a variation on the theme. (Think rigs of one kind or another that clamp onto the dial (or in the case of DE locks handle), attached to pointers of one kind or another, pointing at scales of one kind or another. Let your imagination run free with each of those three elements.)

Also, for extra credit, consider what sort of amplification you could get with a cheap laser pointer somehow affixed to the dial and pointing to a mark on the wall ten feet away. Still not enough? Add a mirror...

Kudos for making this one for yourself from first principles.

Best wishes,

Michael.
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Hoarder

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Post Thu Jan 14, 2021 2:54 am

Re: Getting started with manipulation

Awesome job! I use a windshield wiper insert as a pointer when a post-it note isn't enough.
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femurat

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Post Thu Jan 14, 2021 4:10 pm

Re: Getting started with manipulation

cpe1704tks, thank you for sharing your idea with us!

Seeing how you attached the bamboo pointer made me think. I've always been maniacal about the indicator being dead centered on the dial. You made me realize that there's no need to.

Thank you :)
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MartinHewitt

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Post Thu Jan 14, 2021 5:18 pm

Re: Getting started with manipulation

Pointers are great! Unfortunately there is often something in the way - floor, handle hinges. What did you use to stick the pointer to the dial? Is it holding good enough for a complete manipulation?
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt
<<

cpe1704tks

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Post Thu Jan 14, 2021 7:18 pm

Re: Getting started with manipulation

The bamboo skewer is attached with a small piece of one-eighth inch thick double side adhesive foam tape. It was pressed firmly into the foam where the flat meets the outside rim crease to ensure it would not shift it's alignment during the manipulations.

I had considered use of a laser pointer, but was concerned about weight in the dial affecting contact point measurements and the bulk/size of the laser pointer interfering with dial manipulation. With the skewer this way, normal dial operation is not hindered. Should I have used a laser pointer, rather than use a wall or ceiling as a scale. I would probably used a flat surface vertical from the safe door marked similarly to the scale I did on the post-it sheets.
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MHM

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Post Thu Jan 14, 2021 11:54 pm

Re: Getting started with manipulation

cpe1704tks wrote: was concerned about weight in the dial affecting contact point measurements and the bulk/size of the laser pointer interfering with dial manipulation.


With a bit of thought you can turn a problem into a solution. If you're lucky enough, you can get the position of the laser pointer correct and use the weight of it to apply consistent force to the contact point...
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