J.B. Miller / Gougler Combination Retrieval

[Oldfast]

My first authentic opening.
ebay purchase "Sold as is - no combination"


But first things first... we must appease the Sargent! lol

I wanna see more of the shelves in the background

So we utilize a different section of lock shelves for the background.


Been debating how wordy to get at this point since 1) This is still very experimental & my method is still evolving.
And 2) honestly, it's rather difficult to put into words what exactly I'm hearing that's enabled me to open a couple.

I think a quick description of these locks would be helpful to anyone who hasn't played with one though.
They're unlike anything we're use to. Rather than multiple wheels, these use just a single disc with various
protrusions on it. And instead of the traditional numbers / increments on the face of the lock for reference,
you simply count the number of 'clicks' you turn - reversing directions as you work your way back & forth.
ie. for a combo of Right 3-2-1. You'd start right 3 clicks, then left 2 clicks, and finally right 1 click. Open

The reference point from which to start varies with different models. Some of them have a solid stop when
turning the dial right. So you'd begin working the combo from there with a left rotation. Other models have
no stop - the dial turns indefinitely in either direction. In this case, the starting position would be 12 noon.
There's also no telling just how many 'movements' any given combination may consist of. I'm not really
sure yet, but as far as I know from my very limited experience - it's usually between 3 & 6 movements.




This type (similar to the first one pictured in this thread) so far seem to give me the least resistance in
comparison to some of the other models. I actually had this one open in just a few minutes. It's also nice that
the bodies on these are actual metal... makes it quick & easy to just slap my mic on the back and get right to work.

This particular lock has a left stop in the dial & I start from there, right. I quickly find the combo of: right 2-3-7-1-1-1
Take note of the first two movements... right 2, left 3. Also recall the solid stop in the dial with left rotation. You see
what I'm getting at here? Right 2 clicks away from the stop... then left 3 clicks. This brings me 1 click beyond what
would otherwise be the stop point! This, in my mind, absolutely confirmed the first movement was indeed correct.

Here's why I make mention of this. I decide to take the shackle code (466) to see if it's listed in the code books.



Turns out this one is listed... but it's not what I expected. "Left to Stop. Then Right 6-1-1-1" Hmmm?
What I cracked the lock to: right 2-3-7-1-1-1 versus their listing: right 6-1-1-1. Why the difference?

Remember my first two movements leave me 1 click left of the stop point.
From there, 7 clicks right IS essentially 6 clicks when counting from the stop.
So my last four digits were spot on. But why did my ears carry me through an
additional two movements at the start? At this time, I really have know idea! lol

Sure, I'm curious... but for now I'd like to just take a moment to say..... OPEN!!!

[Riyame]

Haha, awesome work man. Good luck on the rest of them. That is an awesome shelf. How about the safe locks next since they are related.

[Oldfast]

Two More Openings

.....That is an awesome shelf. How about the safe locks next since they are related. .....

lol... You got it buddy! Here's one of the two shelves that hold my coveted safe locks


Guys, these locks are really neat. I came across an article recently that said they're sometimes called labyrinth locks.
Due to the mechanism within I'm assuming. I like the word! Makes me think of mid-evil or ancient times or some shit. lol

In fact, as I slowly move my way through these with massive audio amplification... the sounds make me feel like I'm in a
four thousand year old pyramid and huge stone blocks are being pushed around. Especially so when I'm approaching
the final movement of a combo... it's like this enormous stone that's sliding very slowly, grinding along as it reveals a
hidden treasure room. Getting a little off track, I know - but we sometimes talk of locks bringing us to another world.
Ha!...well there ya have it... a strange little glimpse into one of my many lock worlds. LOL



(the lock w/ mic still attached) LEFT 9-2-6-4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . (the other lock) RIGHT 8-2-8

I currently have five of these Red Dot Gouglers. And up until today I had only succeeded in opening one.
Certainly not due to a lack of trying! Admittedly, I was starting to lose hope and starting to wonder.
Was the first opening just a fluke maybe? Can these things even be opened through sound?
So today's victory felt really good & gave me some renewed confidence to go on.

It's possible my method may finally be starting to evolve. See, part of my problem was that I'd just tackle
these things with no plan in mind. I start turning... "Oh, I think I hear something! Better change directions"
Some clicks later, "That sounds different! Change directions again". Then again, and again, and again. lol
It became just like they're called, a labyrinth. One I couldn't navigate & it'd leave me right where I started.

My ears have honed in on more minute details. My grip on the dial & how I turn it, more productive.
My approach, more systematic. Well, lol, that's what I'd like to think is going on here anyway. ha!
Only time will tell. I have 3 Gouglers remaining that I've been unable to open so far. At this time
I refuse to tag them as 'fails' just yet though. I'll hook back up to them and see how it goes.

[Mikeh727]

Absolutely amazing stuff Mike! Everything I've heard about these is that they are not able to be manipulated. There is no discernible tactile feedback that I've ever been able to feel. I'm loving that you're getting into these!

I've heard the term 'labyrinth' with these locks as well, and when you look at the patent drawings, the term makes sense. Even after studying the drawings for a while I can't picture in my mind what is really going on inside of them. Without that insight, you're in uncharted territory when you try to manipulate them open. It seems as if you've overcome that obstacle!

Thanks for the write ups and keep it up

-Mike

[flywheel]

Good stuff.
When are you going to make a video tutorial? Make sure to add the amplified audio for the viewers.

[Riyame]

Dang man, that is some great stuff. And one hell of a shelf of safe locks behind you

[VancouverSpecial]

Hi Mike,

Great stuff as usual! Looks like your into unexplored territory, can't wait to hear more as you develop this technique - very cool indeed!

Have you considered using a music editor in this type of endeavor? You could record an opening just like a music track and upload it to an editor program, where you can see the whole track/opening laid out before you. With the right tweaks to the graphical display you should be able to see the critical sounds by the shape/height/pattern on the track.

I am such a visual minded person that I always think about using a visual readout when reading about the use of audio equipment for openings. As I think it could help isolate the critical sounds much easier, rather than just by ear. By adjusting the display parameters you should be able to see extremely minute differences in sounds, that your ear would otherwise miss.

There are lots of great free editing programs out there such as Audacity. Plus lots of youtube tutorials on how to use it. For example, if you get a lot of background static with that particular mic you can easily remove it from your track using Audacity, which might help hearing the most critical sounds of the opening. You could also lay out all the different locks side by side and see if there are any signature sounds that stand out across the group.

Just a random thought, perhaps too much trouble to be worth the effort.

Sean

[Oldfast]

A video as well as possibly trying a computer program for the audio are both worth while
thoughts that I might consider exploring. Although, computer shit usually frustrates me! lol

Here's where I'm at with this currently: I have a total of six J.B Miller & Gougler locks.
Out of these six I've managed to open three. But it seems to me the Gouglers should
be classed on their own. In which case my record is 2 legit openings outta the 5 I have.

I'd say I've done pretty well so far for not even having a thorough understanding of the
mechanism inside these. Obviously, the next step is to sacrifice one for this knowledge.

I'm gonna take a short break from this project in favor of a couple others I have going.
There's a tendon or something in my forearm that's going haywire, and my ears also
need a break, lol. This alone wouldn't stop me - but I also could use some more locks.
Gordon is generously sending some, and in the meantime I'll continue to keep an eye
on ebay. I'd like to get more J.B. Millers, but many of them are priced rather high.

Thanks for your interest, support, and ideas so far guys! Project far from finished, and
too early to make any conclusions. But, I can make the statement with certainty that -
"at least SOME of these locks CAN be opened through the use of audio amplification".

[g_kinz]

thanks oldfast awesome locks. cool toys you have back there!!

[Oldfast]

Pleasure is all mine. I enjoy sharing the journey as I go along. Thanks for taking a look Kinz

[g_kinz]

i look through all your post as well as other members!! The one thing I love most about locksmithing is that there is SO MUCH to learn. I could learn something new EVERYDAY!! A field cant get old that is ever changing like locksmithing!!. I am a FAA airframe and powerplant Mech licence holder and have a FCC radio licence. But I love Smithing!!

[gougler]

I have several of the jb miller locks and gougler locks , different generations and patents or patent pending, all succuessfully opened and with ease . I totally understand the mechenism and can open any one non distructivley in just 3-4 minutes, garaunteeded.

[VancouverSpecial]

I have several of the jb miller locks and gougler locks , different generations and patents or patent pending, all succuessfully opened and with ease . I totally understand the mechenism and can open any one non distructivley in just 3-4 minutes, garaunteeded.

Hello gougler,

Welcome to KP
Sounds great! Care to share your methodology?
How about a video? I know I would love to see one of these manipulated, as many others here would too.

Kind regards,
Sean

[Oldfast]

Hello & welcome Gougler. Glad you're here.

I too would love to hear more if you're willing to share.
I'm thinking your method has nothing to do with audio?

My technique of trying to use audio amplification seems to work well with the
J.B Millers... but it's more of a hit & miss thing when it comes to the Gouglers.
100% with J.B Millers, but more like a 50/50 kinda thing with the Gouglers.
But not much of a test group for either - so my findings aren't accurate yet.

Again, I'd love to hear how you're going about it.

[Oldfast]

I have several of the jb miller locks and gougler locks , different generations and patents or patent pending, all succuessfully opened and with ease . I totally understand the mechenism and can open any one non distructivley in just 3-4 minutes, garaunteeded.

....Sounds great! Care to share your methodology?....

....I too would love to hear more if you're willing to share....