Rotational Conversion for S&G 6730

[GWiens2001]

S&G 6730 Combination Rotational Conversion

So here you are, trying to learn to manipulate safe locks. You have already figured out what AWL and AWR means, and you know what a gate is, and the drive cam shape. You are starting to get the idea of graphing the wheels, but when you try the high-low-high and low-high-low tests, the gates are not in the right places.

This gets especially confusing if you already know you have found the gates for all three numbers, have tried them all in every possible order, and the f#$%@%#@% lock still won’t open.

What is the problem?

The problem may have to do with how the wheels pick each other up. The gate will be at different locations, depending on whether you are turning the dial left or right! As if manipulation was not tough enough - now you have to figure out what the number is for the gate on wheel two. (or one, or three). You found the number to be 84 turning to the right, but you need to have the number entered when turned to the left, and the number is different. Grumble Grumble.

This is to show you how to find the rotational conversion of your lock. This works for safe locks like the Sargent and Greenleaf 6730 that I am using in this tutorial.



The first part is something you should do when you are going to manipulate a safe in the first place. This is how you tell if all the wheels are picking up, and in both directions. Turn the safe dial at least 4 full rotations to the left. Stop at 50.



Now turn the dial around to the right one full time, stopping at about 45. Now as you turn past 50, you will feel the drive cam pick up the first wheel just a little past 50. In this case, at 51.8:



Write that number, minus 50, down. 51.6-50.0=1.8 This will make sense later.

Now turn the dial right a full turn to the left, again stopping around 45. As you continue, just past 50, you will feel the dial pick up the second wheel. In this case, at about 52.6



Again, write down that number minus 50. 52.6-50.0=2.6

And repeat the process for the next wheel. Here I end at 53.0



53.0-50.0=3.0

So if you found the gate while turning the dial to the right, to know the number when turning right, move the dial an additional amount, as shown below.

AWR, turn L
Wheel 1 = + 3.0
Wheel 2 = +2.6
Wheel 3 = +1.4

Still confused? Thought so. But it will be clear shortly. First, let’s get the conversion if the wheels are all turned left, then dialing right. Turn the dial another full turn left, stop at 50. Then repeat the above steps, in the opposite direction.





1.8



2.8



3.5

AWL, turn R
Wheel 1 = -3.5
Wheel 2 = -2.8
Wheel 3 = -1.8

And repeating the “turn L” chart so you don’t need to scroll”

AWR, turn L
Wheel 1 = + 3.0
Wheel 2 = +2.6
Wheel 3 = +1.4

Now to translate those numbers into English.

If you found the number while dialing right, and need to dial it left, then look at the chart that ends in “turn L”, and vice-versa.

This lock is set up with the following combination:
L-R-L
25-70-53

If I wanted to dial it backwards (reverse the number directions), I look at the wheel number, and change how far I dial it in the required direction.

Wheel 1 = 25 (found dialing right, need left). Wheel chart “Turn L”
25 -3.5= 21.5



Wheel 2 = 70 (found dialing left, need right). Wheel chart “Turn R”
70 +2.6 = 72.6



Wheel 3 = 53 (found dialing right, need left). Wheel chart “Turn L”
53 -1.8 = 51.2



R-L-R
21.5-72.6-51.2

Now turn the lock back to the drop zone. (Note the bolt is extended)



And turn it the other direction until it stops to draw the bolt…



OPEN!!!

So with conversion,
LRL
25-70-53
dials backwards as:
R-L-R
21.5-72.6-51.2

One other big plus of dialing it backwards is that because of the drive cam drop in slope, turning it the normal direction sounds normal, but backwards, there is a distinctive “clunk”, telling you for certain that it is gonna work!

Hope I did not leave you too bewildered and confused. Also, do not use my numbers for conversion, because it will be slightly different for your lock based on manufacturing differences and in the way you read your dial.

Good Luck,

Gordon

[faygo6]

Very helpful! It never occurred to me that the distance between the wheel pickups would change from wheel to wheel. I always found the last contact the easiest to feel so I just assumed that variation on all the wheels. I'm going to check a few of my locks when I get off work to see.

[magician59]

"The gate will be at different locations, depending on whether you are turning the dial left or right! "

If your lock operates this way, it is in serious need of servicing. In a properly working safe lock (with a few exceptions, according to the brand), the movable fly in the wheel assembly is there to make up for the rotational differences. What this means is you can set the gates in the same positions, no matter whether you dialed LRL, or RLR.

The dialing rotation sequence will only affect the number of times you have to change dialing direction until the safe lock is open: In a three-wheel lock, you will (usually) turn the dial right to retract the bolt, once the combination is set (again, there are some manufacturers who changed that, but this is where your knowledge of the lock you're working on is essential). So, if you dial starting to the right, your sequence is RIGHT, LEFT, RIGHT; LEFT to drop-in; then RIGHT to open. There's nothing wrong with this; but (like your favorite keyboard short-cuts) for economy of motion, starting out left: It's LEFT, RIGHT, LEFT, then, RIGHT to open.

[GWiens2001]

If your lock operates this way, it is in serious need of servicing. In a properly working safe lock (with a few exceptions, according to the brand), the movable fly in the wheel assembly is there to make up for the rotational differences. What this means is you can set the gates in the same positions, no matter whether you dialed LRL, or RLR.

You have more experience than I do at this, but both of my S&G locks and my Big Red lock have a slight difference in gate locations right to left. The Big Red was brand new, as well. Any suggestions on what I should do with them? As I said, all three do this. So did a lock on a safe I manipulated for a shop here in town.

I have a lot to learn, and would value your input.

As for dialing different directions for the combination, it is more to try different things and learn more about how the lock works.

Gordon

[Oldfast]

Gordon... beautifully laid out. Most certainly it will prove very useful to many!

The gate will be at different locations, depending on whether you are turning the dial left or right!

If your lock operates this way, it is in serious need of servicing. In a properly working safe lock (with a few exceptions, according to the brand), the movable fly in the wheel assembly is there to make up for the rotational differences. What this means is you can set the gates in the same positions, no matter whether you dialed LRL, or RLR.

I too am very curious to hear more about this.

According to nearly all the literature I've read.... the purpose of movable flys are twofold:
1. to maximize the 'usable' numbers when choosing a combination, and
2. to allow the user to dial the combination from either direction to open.

Some of my locks are brand new, others are old... but I've yet to come across one that actually operates as
the literature describes. This Mosler had the smallest differences I've seen so far, and I was able to open it
with the same numbers dialing from either direction... but that's the closest I've seen. Granted, the number
of locks I've experienced is also quite small in comparison to some others around here. Love to hear more.

[LockManipulator]

Gordon... beautifully laid out. Most certainly it will prove very useful to many!

The gate will be at different locations, depending on whether you are turning the dial left or right!

If your lock operates this way, it is in serious need of servicing. In a properly working safe lock (with a few exceptions, according to the brand), the movable fly in the wheel assembly is there to make up for the rotational differences. What this means is you can set the gates in the same positions, no matter whether you dialed LRL, or RLR.

I too am very curious to hear more about this.

According to nearly all the literature I've read.... the purpose of movable flys are twofold:
1. to maximize the 'usable' numbers when choosing a combination, and
2. to allow the user to dial the combination from either direction to open.

Some of my locks are brand new, others are old... but I've yet to come across one that actually operates as
the literature describes. This Mosler had the smallest differences I've seen so far, and I was able to open it
with the same numbers dialing from either direction... but that's the closest I've seen. Granted, the number
of locks I've experienced is also quite small in comparison to some others around here. Love to hear more.

The same goes for me here. I've had locks that are 2.5 increments off (for the 3rd wheel) when approaching from a different directon. I would like to see a lock that opens with the same combination on different rotations though! Seems to me it'd me slightly easier to manipulate; wouldn't have to do rotational conversion if 2nd wheel reads first on AWL.