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Time for the PhoneMan to try manipulation!

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PhoneMan

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I've gone and said something stupid, haven't I?
I've gone and said something stupid, haven't I?

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Location: Missouri

Post Wed Dec 18, 2013 1:04 pm

Time for the PhoneMan to try manipulation!

Ok, so I bought this today for $10:
IMG_0006.JPG


And guess what? there's something in it! I can't tell what, but it's possibly a white envelope (full of money?!?!) hopefully not just paper!
I've been reading the Matt Blaze paper, and I have a file full of PDF's and docs on manipulation, sent to me by a member on here over a year ago. Time to get serious! Seeing Oldfast's manipulations as well of other stories, I must say I've caught the bug!

So, any advice? Where should I start?

Here's the dial:
IMG_0007.JPG


Ok, wish me luck!
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Squelchtone

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Post Wed Dec 18, 2013 1:51 pm

Re: Time for the PhoneMan to try manipulation!

Try default combinations first. 50-25-50, 25-50-25, all 50's, 20-40-60.

After that find the Contact Area somewhere from 0 to 15. Then start graphing All Wheels Left or All Wheels Right and see if any readings are different in the Left or Right Contact Points versus the majority of other numbers around the dial.

What a score for $10 bucks, I wish I had such luck!!

Squelchtone
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PhoneMan

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I've gone and said something stupid, haven't I?
I've gone and said something stupid, haven't I?

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Post Wed Dec 18, 2013 2:56 pm

Re: Time for the PhoneMan to try manipulation!

Ok, it's the graph part that's kicking my ass, I get what you're looking for with the contact points and how they get smaller when a wheel is on or close to a correct number, but how do I make the graphs?
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fgarci03

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Post Wed Dec 18, 2013 4:09 pm

Re: Time for the PhoneMan to try manipulation!

PM, femurat made a nice guide on how to start!
http://keypicking.com/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=5949&p=48449&hilit=manipulation+started#p48449


Let us know how it goes! I always like a good quest! :mrgreen:
Go ahead, keep plugging away, picking on me! You will end up on bypass or with rigor mortise.
- GWiens2001
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CPT1911

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Post Wed Dec 18, 2013 5:05 pm

Re: Time for the PhoneMan to try manipulation!

PhoneMan...your X-axis indicates the location on the dial where the wheel or wheels were parked when the contact point reading is taken, your Y-axis represents the actual CP reading. The RCP readings (turning dial to the left--probably around 10) are in the top graph, your LCP readings (turning the dial to the right--maybe around 95) are graphed on the bottom graph. When the bottom graph spikes up and the top graph spikes down, you have a gate indication.

I can send you the excel templates I made if that would be helpful. Print em out and start graphing. PM me your preferred email address if you are interested.

Good Luck!

Trevor
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PhoneMan

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Post Wed Dec 18, 2013 6:14 pm

Re: Time for the PhoneMan to try manipulation!

here's the new graph I made, still flat except for 100 or 0:
IMG_0008.JPG
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elbowmacaroni

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Post Wed Dec 18, 2013 11:41 pm

Re: Time for the PhoneMan to try manipulation!

Dude... what a score! Where'd you find a drop safe for $10?
"Cave ab homine unius libri" - Beware of anyone who has just one book

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faygo6

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Post Thu Dec 19, 2013 1:12 am

Re: Time for the PhoneMan to try manipulation!

I'm guessing by the way you filled out the graph your expecting too large of a change in the number the contact point falls on. Instead of 7,6,5,4,3 in the top block try this. If the contact typicaly falls on say 4. Write 3.5, 3.75, 4, 4.25, 4.5. when you view the dial you want to divide the space between number into 00.00th in your mind. Not looking at the dial from the same angle can throw off your read to0. If you can get a PC or laptop the safe and view the dial through a web cam you might see the readings better. I have dial reading software but I can't remember where I got it from.
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femurat

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Post Thu Dec 19, 2013 2:48 am

Re: Time for the PhoneMan to try manipulation!

Very nice find PhoneMan! Welcome to the club :)

About your first graph, you may have found a gate at 0...
Since this was your first manipulation attempt, I'd suggest, as Squelchy already said, to try a AWR graph.
Let's see if the big jump at 0 is still there or if you find something else...

Cheers :)

ps: Thanks for the compliments fgarci03, I'm happy my tutorial is still useful :)
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CPT1911

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Post Thu Dec 19, 2013 9:53 am

Re: Time for the PhoneMan to try manipulation!

faygo6 wrote:I'm guessing by the way you filled out the graph your expecting too large of a change in the number the contact point falls on....


Phone man,

I think faygo6 might be right. The "drop" in contact region caused by placing the fence on a gate was almost imperceptible to me when I first started. Some locks seem to only read to 0.2 to 0.3 of a graduation. The "easy" ones are more like 0.4 or more.

Here are some pics of CP readings. The first one is a typical AWL RCP reading on an older S&G 6700 when the fence is not over a gate. The second is a healthy drop caused by moving the fence to the center of the first gate to read, in this case, W3. I would consider this a VERY dramatic indication (10.9-10.4 = 0.5) Other locks will not be so dramatic.

No Gate.JPG


Gate.JPG


I'd graph it AWL first. If you see nothing, try AWR. If still nothing, place W1+W2 @ R8, take W3 left around. If still nothing, try explosives. :cool:
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PhoneMan

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I've gone and said something stupid, haven't I?

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Location: Missouri

Post Thu Dec 19, 2013 10:52 am

Re: Time for the PhoneMan to try manipulation!

elbowmacaroni wrote:Dude... what a score! Where'd you find a drop safe for $10?

The place I work (a resale/thrift store). No combo, so I basically got it at scrap value!

faygo6 wrote:I'm guessing by the way you filled out the graph your expecting too large of a change in the number the contact point falls on. Instead of 7,6,5,4,3 in the top block try this. If the contact typicaly falls on say 4. Write 3.5, 3.75, 4, 4.25, 4.5. when you view the dial you want to divide the space between number into 00.00th in your mind. Not looking at the dial from the same angle can throw off your read to0. If you can get a PC or laptop the safe and view the dial through a web cam you might see the readings better. I have dial reading software but I can't remember where I got it from.


I do believe you're right! I have been poring over the National Locksmith Guide to Manipulation and posts on here (Thanks Femurat!), so I realized i was probably expecting too much on my first try. I'm going to start over and see what I get. As I was playing with it last night, I began to doubt the reading at 0, as I think I was reading it wrong. Here's some of that software:http://analoghacking.com/ Since it's free, I may try it.

Thanks guys for the encouragement! I also realized since this is mine, I have no time constraints on when I need it open, My biggest mistake was trying to hurry it along and that is obviously not how you want to approach your first manipulation!
I'll just play with it in my free time and see what I can discover. After all, this is like a journey, it may not be easy, but that doesn't mean it won't be worth it or even fun!
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Squelchtone

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Posts: 361

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Location: Massachusetts USA

Post Thu Dec 19, 2013 12:47 pm

Re: Time for the PhoneMan to try manipulation!

I think for beginners, including myself, since I'm no expert on the topic, we need a close up video of a safe lock being spun AWL and showing from above the crows foot the difference in numbers when over a gate and when not over a gate, or when approaching a gate. If someone doesn't beat me to it, I may try to film something tonight and put it on youtube.

Squelchtone
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bitbuster

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Location: NW Wis

Post Thu Dec 19, 2013 1:06 pm

Re: Time for the PhoneMan to try manipulation!

nice find.you may already know some of this but you have a safe with a B-rate square door. the lock is an S&G R6730. lock is mounted right-handed with a drop-in point of 98.
'Gunter glieben glauten globen' Def Leppard, Rock of Ages, 1983
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PhoneMan

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I've gone and said something stupid, haven't I?
I've gone and said something stupid, haven't I?

Posts: 378

Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2011 8:05 am

Location: Missouri

Post Thu Dec 19, 2013 1:12 pm

Re: Time for the PhoneMan to try manipulation!

Squelch, that would be awesome, as I see the contact points being either right on a number, or in between it. I can't see any other difference.
Also, I'd like to know how big of a possibility there is that this thing is still set on an original combo, as if it is, and could be found with the serial # (BC161680)
that would be nice!

And Bitbuster, thanks for the info!
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PhoneMan

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I've gone and said something stupid, haven't I?
I've gone and said something stupid, haven't I?

Posts: 378

Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2011 8:05 am

Location: Missouri

Post Thu Dec 19, 2013 1:26 pm

Re: Time for the PhoneMan to try manipulation!

don't even know if I'm reading the dial right, hard to tell what I'm seeing. Looks promising though. 25-30?

The high points on the graph look to be half way between the lines on the dial, I can't see any differences except half way or right on the line. (Small dial.)
IMG_0010.JPG
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