LC on manipulation tour: Demolition Yard (pics)

[Libertyclicks]

LC: excellent post, and very nice photos!
My locks are all packed up now and ready to move to a new house in the next few weeks, I hope to return to learning manipulation when I'm settled in.
Thank you for the inspiration!
Squelchtone

Thanks Squelchtone. I had a lot of fun with it, I am excited to go back and do more. I'd love to read some of your stuff as well when you get settled again. Good luck on your move, don't break your back it's not worth it. LC

[Libertyclicks]

Thanks for sharing with us your experience, I'm following you learning more and more and I'm impressed.
Cheers

Happy to do it, I'm glad there are people out there who find it interesting, I sure do. I feel like I need to read and read and read and spin and spin and spin right now. I guess that's probably normal. Yesterday when I was dialing it was all business as usual and then I got kind of in the zone I guess, all I was thinking about was the wheels, I'd look at my graph and see exactly what was happening inside the thing. If the lock had opened right at that moment I think I would have had a heart attack or a stroke or transitioned into a new dimension or something... But that feeling disappeared as quickly as it had come Hahaha.
I might have to get an LP101 account to read your stuff femurat. Good to hear from you.
Rollin' Rollin' Rollin'
LC

[Libertyclicks]

That "All American with S&G".... the safe itself looks awfully simalar to this one viewtopic.php?p=66107#p66107
Of course, there's no telling what exactly is installed on that one. Pretty good odds it's an S&G lock though.

Just throwin' out some ideas here, but if you've indeed confirmed w3 has a sticky fly, you could try:
using w2s' drive pin to 'smack' the sticking fly on w3 a few times before it arrives at its' destination.
The hope is that you'll bring the fly to its' maximum range of movement, creating for some consistancy.

I think the crate (the safe itself) is the same as that one from your posts. I'm going to write myself a note to try to loosen up the fly on wheel 3 with a few quick whacks next time I go there, I think it will help. I don't think there is a damage risk as long as the fly isn't against the stop... plus these things are pretty sturdy last time I checked.

I have a good feeling about this one.... I think you'll crack it

Thanks Mike! I needed that confidence. I really hope I can get it next time. All doubts will be laid temporarily to rest if I can get that one open. In the grand scheme it would be a really small victory but I feel like it's Mt. Everest right now. I am going to duck out of work and go home to post my graphs that I made....
LC

[Libertyclicks]

American with S&G

The names of the clients involved have been removed or changed to protect the innocent.
No safes were harmed in the making of these charts.
A shout out to all the professional students out there learning what I'm learning. Why in the world does HI LO testing not work right for me ? LOL.

American S&G 1.jpg

I was freespinning this dial for 20 numbers or so just to get the feel, then started graphing it out. You can see a few random readings in there, I always hate those when I see them. Couple obvious canyons here, and I think those really hi spots around 80 and 90 would disappear if I checked again.
In hindsight, I'm looking at 58 and 75 wondering why no amplification there? Oh probably because I saw something shiny and got distracted... To be fair being at this place was like the time I went to England and was surrounded by beautiful ladies with cute accents. Hard to focus on just one...
Also I never finished the amp at 70... I think I reasoned it would be easier to read if I narrowed down one of the canyons and moved on from there... And so I produce graph 2...

American S&G 2.jpg

I elect here to drop a couple wheels on 37 and read w3 around. I got the graph ready but it was nearing quitting time so I just spun until I saw something weird and boy was it ever weird. It was like a brick wall had been hit at 40 and it kept getting deeper and deeper.
Now for the reasoning part which I didn't do at the time...
Since I had the other wheels on 37 to get THIS reading at 44 then 37 MUST be on one of the first two wheels and 44 MUST be on w3 since it was the only thing I was turning...

???(37) - ???(37) - 44

Even though I didn't write it down, I dialed 37-18-44 and it didn't work. I got the 18 from my first chart.
I ran 37 w1, w2 around every 2.5 ish and w3 @ 44. If I recall correctly the lock really dragged through the drop in area when I had w2 in the high range (between 80-60 I think) so I could re check that.
Really I guess I should check the following as they use other numbers I liked from my charts and also are more likely numbers that someone would have used:
40-20-45
35-20-45
20-40-45
20-35-45
18-37-44
I think I better amp and check that 8 from graph 1, also better check 28-36 from graph 1, just for my own sanity and to get warmed up next time, though really I'm confident on 37 and 44.
I wonder if the last number is on that 78 or so which I never amped from graph 1...better also try:
35-78-44
78-35-44
37-78-44
78-37-44
As I write these I can't help but feel like alarms should ring or bells should chime if I even TYPE the correct combo for this safe, but it just doesn't work that way hahaha.

If none of that works then I will assume 37 on w2, 44 on w3 and w1 around. That will take a long time, but if it opens it's all good, and I'm gonna have a good long sit down with these charts when I get the real combo. -LC

[Libertyclicks]

Meilink Safe with S&G 6700

Meilink S&G 1.jpg

So I was just spinning this one till I thought I felt something then I went right back and amplified it on the graph. After writing it down I looked in the back. I didn't fully manipulate her for previously stated reasons, obviously I wish I had now. Sorry there isn't a lot to see on this one... but there it is. -LC

[Libertyclicks]

J&J Taylor in Brown

So after playing around with the dial and finding all the wheels (I have since done quite a bit of research and I believe it to be 3 wheels with the bolt being one piece with the arm/fence) I went through a couple times to find contacts, then starting graphing.

Brown Taylor 1.jpg

Holy faint contact points on you Taylor, well let's see what we can find anyway... I arbitrarily started at 50.
Oh crap... oh crap... oh crap...
Oh thank you GOD.
If I open this thing and that is NOT one of the numbers I am going to be furious. And that's when it hit me.
It MUST be a number since the safe has NO WAY of giving off random readings unless there is a big slot in the wheel... like a GATE. This is just a bunch of metal discs in a box 3 inches away from my fingers and all I am doing is measuring it, weighing it, feeling it. I will open you damn it. I will.
I have read that Taylors are born with a combo of 65-45-80, and I compare that to my graph and see little dips at those points.
next visit I will amp a flat section as a warm up, then the little dips at 60 65 72 80 98. I'll see if that shows me anything.
Right now I'm running on the assumption that 0-20 will not be used at all since it does not exist on the dial. In theory someone could use it but I'm playing the odds that someone wouldn't since they think you must dial the number exactly and there are no dial marks anywhere for that range.

As always, all comments, questions, theories, hints, suggestions are very much appreciated.
LibertyClicks

[nozza36]

Keep it up ! lc ! , most entertaining thread in a long time , i'm willing you to get them all open .
I may never get the same opportunity you presently have so i must admit i'm sooo jealous !

[Oldfast]

Holy hell... you know what you remind me of? The chess-master, Bobby Fischer... playing a half dozen games at once! LMAO!

No safes were harmed in the making of these charts.

Well I would hope not! You seem like a great guy... I would hate to have to report you to the authorities.

So I've really been looking over your progress with the "American w/ S&G". First thing I noticed is your graphs:
They've become much more precise and the layout is a nice logical, easy to follow spread. Nice to follow along now.

So allow me to 'stir the pot' a little. Some more for you to stew over until your next visit if you will. lol
Keep in mind, these are more so thoughts than advice... may hinder more than help... but anyway....

....I'm looking at 58 and 75 wondering why no amplification there?....
Also I never finished the amp at 70... I think I reasoned it would be easier to read if I narrowed down one of the canyons and moved on from there... And so I produce graph 2...

I agree with you. 58,70, and 75 just didn't seem definitive enough to pursue at that time.
Especially considering you have two deep canyons that are much more deserving of your time.

According to your amplification for 17.5.... 18 & 19 gave you the best readings.
Why not choose 18.5? 17.5 just seems to be pushing awfully close to the edge.

Since I had the other wheels on 37 to get THIS reading at 44 then 37 MUST be on one of the first two wheels and 44 MUST be on w3 since it was the only thing I was turning...

The other thing is your hi/low tests for 37. I feel your pain!! LOL. Your results seemed SO solid, placing it on w3.
Naturally doubt creeps in when you isolated w3 and came upon a nice reading at 44... arrrrgh! Earlier you made
mention of a sticky fly on w3. Something to consider possibly? The typical range of motion for a fly in an S&G is
approximately 10-12 increments. You've now found two very distinct readings on that wheel, diferring by 7 incs.

Also, when you're running your hi/low tests... are you being mindful of the rotational directions you're using?
This will have a big impact on your results. Dialing the same # from two different directions will place the
wheel slightly different. The varience comes from the widths of the flys. They must be accounted for.
e.g. Your hi test for 37. You chose 50 as your test number. If you found 37 with a right rotation,
then be sure to dial it the same way in all 3 of your test combos.

50 37 37 ..... L R
37 50 37 ..... R L R
37 37 50 ..... R L

This way you approach 37 with a R-rotation, and 50 with a L-rotation every time. Consistancy.

You've listed some possible combinations you want to try before graphing any more. I think you certainly have enough
information to make some educated tries. It's always worth a few minutes of your time in comparison to another graph.
But here again, if you're interchanging numbers, wheels, directions, etc., some thought has to go into accounting for
the flys and the differences they produce. (e.g. dialing w1 R18. To place the wheel in the same position while coming
from the other way may vary as much as 2 1/4.... so you'd have to dial L 20 1/4).

Can't wait till you pop this thing

[Squelchtone]

J&J Taylor in Brown

As always, all comments, questions, theories, hints, suggestions are very much appreciated.
LibertyClicks

From my sources, that lock is made by Sargent & Greenleaf, I can post some photos of the inside. is there a change index about 10 1/2 numbers to the right of the upsidedown star?

Thanks
Squelchtone

[Libertyclicks]

First thing I noticed is your graphs:
They've become much more precise and the layout is a nice logical, easy to follow spread. Nice to follow along now.

Yeah I've tried a few different styles here and there. I usually just end up free styling, but this method makes it easy for me to leave a safe and then return to it. I can look at my notes and get back in the game. Easier for the audience here too so I'm glad to hear it.

According to your amplification for 17.5.... 18 & 19 gave you the best readings.
Why not choose 18.5? 17.5 just seems to be pushing awfully close to the edge.

Yeah, I'm not sure why... I do remember going cross eyed at one point staring at the lines on the safe as they go by over and over and over. Maybe I forgot which fraction was larger when I read my notes that day lol. I have written down 18 on a different sheet ... I think I got my numbers mixed up.

The other thing is your hi/low tests for 37. I feel your pain!! LOL. Your results seemed SO solid, placing it on w3.
Naturally doubt creeps in when you isolated w3 and came upon a nice reading at 44... arrrrgh! Earlier you made
mention of a sticky fly on w3.

Yeah the hi lo's drive me up the wall. I am thinking about that sticky fly, and it is a factor for me dialing but it is hit and miss. Plus my first graph never fell into that deep PIT which was at 44, so I'm thinking 37 has to be one of the wheels and 44 is surely on 3. Now I'm putting stuff together in my head based on that point and this next point you made:

Are you being mindful of the rotational directions you're using? The varience comes from the widths of the flys.

I think you've hit the nail on the head here. When I think about what is PHYSICALLY happening inside the lock I can't figure out why a reading would differ when I hi lo test it, and it's because I hadn't taken that into account anywhere. This makes perfect sense to me. I think you just told me how to shave hours from my times.
I'm just thinking out loud here (typing out loud?) , seeing if I can reason my way through this. It doesn't matter so much which direction I dial the 50 on, but I want to dial the other number the same direction I found it, or account for the fly width. But on the test combo 37 37 50 I can't dial 37 the same direction both times unless...
Option 1: I go past it and then come back a little bit, I think that would get the fly on the other side of the groove. This would take a bit more turning and anytime I have to reverse the wheel pack and start counting backward rotation it's a recipe for disaster.
Option 2: Figure out if dialing a little higher or lower works for my numbers.
EDIT: I had to open a lock and dial it to figure the conversion out in my brain. I had this backwards at first. L to R you would dial lower the width of the fly, R to L you would dial higher the width of the fly.

So let's apply that to my example. So I THINK I have 37 on wheel 1 turning CCW, but could it in fact be 35 or 40 turning CW? I think it would have to be a HIGHER number in this case (39.5?) to actually have the wheel in the same position and account for the fly difference.

Can't wait till you pop this thing

Thank you so much for your time and input Oldfast. I am going a little batty myself here thinking about it. The weather is garbage and I just want to drive back out there and play some more.

[Libertyclicks]

is there a change index about 10 1/2 numbers to the right of the upsidedown star?

There sure is. I would like that if you could post a pic you have. I have some dodgy low resolution ones I found online but I can't get any info from it. -LC

[femurat]

from "american with an s&g" second graph looks like you amplify by reading every 2 numbers... and read just right contact point. lazy man!
and from your strange results (dragging but not opening) I think you have to check the gate position more accurately.

now I continue reading ttyl

[Oldfast]

Are you being mindful of the rotational directions you're using? The varience comes from the widths of the flys.

I think you've hit the nail on the head here. When I think about what is PHYSICALLY happening inside the lock I can't figure out why a reading would differ when I hi lo test it, and it's because I hadn't taken that into account anywhere. This makes perfect sense to me. I think you just told me how to shave hours from my times.
I'm just thinking out loud here (typing out loud?) , seeing if I can reason my way through this. It doesn't matter so much which direction I dial the 50 on, but I want to dial the other number the same direction I found it, or account for the fly width. But on the test combo 37 37 50 I can't dial 37 the same direction both times unless...
Option 1: I go past it and then come back a little bit, I think that would get the fly on the other side of the groove. This would take a bit more turning and anytime I have to reverse the wheel pack and start counting backward rotation it's a recipe for disaster.
Option 2: Figure out if dialing a little higher or lower works for my numbers. EDIT: I had to open a lock and dial it to figure the conversion out in my brain. I had this backwards at first. L to R you would dial lower the width of the fly, R to L you would dial higher the width of the fly.

So let's apply that to my example. So I THINK I have 37 on wheel 1 turning CCW, but could it in fact be 35 or 40 turning CW? I think it would have to be a HIGHER number in this case (39.5?) to actually have the wheel in the same position and account for the fly difference.

Options 1 & 2 are certainly things that you'll want to eventually explore. However, neither have to be applied here...

....But on the test combo 37 37 50 I can't dial 37 the same direction both times unless....

Don't look at this like you were dialing an actual combination in. It's less rotations than that.
Instead, think in terms of positioning. What you're shooting for is R37 R37 L50. So....

Turn RIGHT until you're turning the entire wheel pack. Stop @ 37. (At this point, you've essentially dialed R37 R37 R37).
Now switch directions (LEFT) and pass 37 once (where you'll pick up w3) and go to 50. That's it! (you've just dialed R37 R37 L50).
You can now switch directions one last time in order to go to the drop-in area and take your reading.

[Libertyclicks]

Femurat:
Yes that was sloppy of me but it was so obvious i never went back. I'll clean that up.

Oldfast: re: dialing 37 37 50
... (facepalm)OF COURSE! (LC is a little embarassed at the blunder.)
Its cold here but the sun is shining. At the very least I can Get you all more pictures, but I want that American open today.

[Oldfast]

... (facepalm) OF COURSE! (LC is a little embarassed at the blunder.)

lol! Not always comforting moments at the time.... but "facepalm moments"
are accompanied by lightbulbs in the brain... which is ALWAYS a good thing!

It's VERY easy to overthink things when it comes to manipulation. I do it all the time!