LC's Manipulations with pics

[Libertyclicks]

I find reading and writing about manipulation is my current obsession which is why I've been so verbose lately about all things lock related. So I'd like to start up this thread to post about my work learning manipulation.

I hope this thread can be mutually beneficial for myself and others. Others may learn from seeing how far I follow a wrong lead or indication or how quickly I throw away a correct indication. I also hope I learn by getting suggestions, criticism, etc.

OldFast has laid all the ground work on this forum about discussing this topic all ready, thanks to his influences *femurat* on LP101 on the same topic. So if you haven't checked out OldFast's stuff ..... well you probably aren't a member of this forum or you would have, or you haven't lived and you should go do it now:
http://keypicking.com/viewtopic.php?f=100&t=7432&start=60
I hope he won't be offended if I humbly borrow his logical shorthand for all things manipulation. If I say something that doesn't make sense on my thread, the explanation is probably on page 1 of OldFast's chronicles, or you can ask me what the heck I'm on about.

I'd like to take this chance to thank my combo change girl for her graceful patience and her resilience to my prying at her for more information on combo numbers .
I apologize in advance , the first few are gonna be pretty sloppy, there is no organization yet, just loose bits of info bouncing around my pages and my head.

[dicey]

No offense but I think we should be careful about what we publish here.

[Libertyclicks]

Agreed. I might be overstepping my boundaries here. Stand by for PM.

[Oldfast]

Can't wait to see ya rollin' (if you decide to publish it) Libertyclicks!!!

No offense but I think we should be careful about what we publish here.

No offense taken (on my part). In fact, it's something I've given a great deal of thought to & also
inquired about with others before starting my thread. I would actually love to hear some serious
opinions from others as well . Such a discussion would be more appropriate in a seperate post
probably... I might start one up if someone doesn't beat me to the punch. It would be interesting.

[Libertyclicks]

Well if we talk about what we should and shouldn't talk about, then it'll be common knowledge what we shouldn't talk about, and that will be the topic of conversation.
:S huh?

[Libertyclicks]

Well, pm's sent, and I think it's safe to post this much:

When I got this lock I knew nothing about safes, never owned one , never knew how they worked or anything interesting about them.
After bringing home the lock, I sat with the dial and spun it around many times to see if I had some super gift where the lock would tell me the combo in morse code or with loud clicks like in the movies or something.
To my great surprise I was NOT gifted in any way and I couldn't feel that much.

Then the real learning began. I pulled the thing apart and looked at all the interesting pieces and how they work with each other. I found it very interesting and played with it quite a bit. Oh joy, this piece moves that piece, then that one moves that. This won't move at all until that does etc. etc. I could do that all day.
I set and re set the combo many times until I was satisfied with that procedure. Then I reset the combo to 50-25-50.
Now I did some charting though I new the combination all ready.

[Libertyclicks]

Not much to see there. I think I only came up with that chart since I knew the numbers all ready lol.
Ok, enter the beautiful assistant. New combination please! But please nothing in the "FORBIDDEN ZONE", there be dragons there.
I leave the room and a new combo is applied.
Excellent, now for some REAL learning.
Hours pass as I chart the new numbers without any success at all. Readings are all over the place and my hopes sink.
I crumple and angrily throw out two charts that I really regret throwing out now.
I take a break and read lots of material before going back to it.
This time I intend to chart only points of interest. So away I go...
I started just wildly listing numbers that intrigued me, then I graphed some with pencil, I apologize you can't really see those.
I scratched out numbers after I rechecked them and saw nothing the second time through.

[Libertyclicks]

Random numbers that stuck themselves out to me were all wildly listed and I went back to them later after another break.
I thought I had all three and maybe I was in fact gifted, so I dialed all possible combinations of the numbers I thought were correct. No dice. Not even a satisfying click , or a hint or whisper saying I was even on the right path.
Oh well , my suspicion is confirmed that I will learn the hard way.
I read some more, dial some more, and then decide I must start figuring out what numbers are incorrect and what order they go in. So I do some tests:

Apologies for the sloppy censoring, I feel like a NAZI doing it too, but it had to be done.

[Libertyclicks]

I do some of these tests incorrectly at first and find no info, those I disregard completely and I X'd them out on the page.
Then I figure out what I did wrong and try again, this yielded results but they are contradictory to each other... Sigh! Oh well it seems to me that if I can read those numbers, they must be in the combo. But the order is wrong, the number I don't have is the first number in the combo, so I have to dial all three each time to try to get the last number!

I dial the first number as everything from 0 to 100 and my other two known numbers. It won't open! Gaaarrrr! Why cruel world why?!?!?!?111???

Maybe I can't do this and I'm just dreaming this whole thing. I drink a beer and think about what it would be like if there actually was only 100 people on the whole planet who could do this. Nooooo! I won't let it happen!

I reverse my other two numbers and dial them all, with no effect. I figure my tests were done too sloppy and the order is all wrong, so I start dialing in 35 as the first number and checking second number as all unknowns. Well when I did that I couldn't feel a darn thing, so I figured I'm heading down the wrong path and even if it wasn't the wrong path I can't feel enough to unlock it that way, so I genuinely hope it's the wrong path.

I go back to the original order and start dialing in 1 increment at a time rather than 3 at a time which I was doing. Enter the fine assistant again. I plead with her, she must have set the combo wrong, I SAID NO FORBIDDEN ZONE. She heard what I said and tells me so, but assures me it is set correctly and she did test it. She asks where I'm at so far and I show her my data and describe rapidly what I've been doing.
"Oh.", she says and sits on the bed with a smirk and opens her book by Jane Austin.
What a woman.

I start dialing while frustratedly saying out loud "It's not 1, (spin spin spin) it's not 2, (spin spin spin) it's not 3....". LOL.
She giggles and says "...Maybe it's on the other side of the dial, say between 63 and 78...?"
My heart flutters, I love you for leading me down the right path but HATE you for giving me that hint.
Spin spin spin spin spin spin spin spin click.
I turn a bit more and the bolt retracts. What a feeling!
What a marvelous little piece of engineering. This is the best hobby that's ever existed in the history of mankind. I can't wait to tell everyone I know all about this!

...

Yeah, well actually that's a bad idea. Just like when I learned how simple canadian locks are, I discovered it's a really touchy subject to bring up with people, and they never look at you the same again. You must be a criminal if you know about this stuff after all.

Discussion:
Does anyone have their own names for tests they do on numbers to see if they are correct? I don't have a name for the test I was doing, but I didn't really read about it anywhere, I just knew it would work from looking in a lock and gathering intel on how the lock works. I hope to get a real cool sounding name for it so I sound awesome when (if) I ever get to talk about it.

[GWiens2001]

The names I use for some things manipulation related are the same as I have used for some locks I could not pick, and are thus best not published.

Believe the proper term (I could go look it up, but I am too lazy after a long day's work) would be "test combinations".

Gordon

[Oldfast]

Off to a great start my friend!.... great start.

Bet I know what your next trip to Staples will yield...lol... some graph paper
A wise safe tech once said, "A short pencil is better than a long memory." lol

....What a marvelous little piece of engineering...

Yeah, it really is too. Seems so intricate, and yet, so simplistic and realiable.
Very effective means of security... and its' basic design has really not
changed much at all over many years - alot to be said for that.

...I go back to the original order and start dialing in 1 increment at a time rather than 3 at a time which I was doing...

When dialing for your final gate: you can safely go in increments of 2... any more than that & you're apt to miss the gate.
When graphing wheels in general: most people will go in increments of 2.5 (40 readings in 1 revolution).
Persoanlly, I go by incs of 2. Yes, it's an extra 10 readings (50)... but I like it for a couple of reasons:
1) I'm more apt to notice fluctuations, and less apt to miss something (happened to me too many x's).
2) Every 2 increments leaves a greater "margin of error" which allows me to dial faster.

...I don't have a name for the test I was doing...

As you experienced, "high/low testing" or "test combinations" don't always yield rock solid results.
Isolating a wheel, as we've talked about, can eliminate lingering doubts. If you can catch the
same reading while moving only one wheel... there's no question the gate is on that wheel.



p.s. Another quick thought on disclosure... and again, I don't want to derail your thread here...

But I did some web surfing yestereday. Two pieces of literature on safe manipulation:

"Safecracking for the Computer Scientist"...and... "National Locksmith's Guide to Manipulation".
Matt Blaze's paper, as we all know, is in the public domain for ANYONE to view... free of charge.
The NLGM book is not only sold on Amazon, but I ran across a handful of sites where it appeared
you could download a pdf version of it.... probably for a small charge, or possibly free.

Point is: There's not much we can reveal that isn't ALREADY (in far greater detail) available to the average citizen.
Anyway, just my opinion. But certainly, caution/discretion is never a bad thing... just a bit overrated sometimes. lol

[Libertyclicks]

Off to a great start my friend!.... great start.

Thanks Oldfast! That means a lot to me. I'm kinda stuck on my second one, but I'll be spinning when I'm done checking the forum here.

Bet I know what your next trip to Staples will yield...lol... some graph paper
A wise safe tech once said, "A short pencil is better than a long memory." lol

Haha yep a whole book of it was purchased, there will be some much nicer graphs to see soon.

p.s. Another quick thought on disclosure... and again, I don't want to derail your thread here...
I ran across a handful of sites where it appeared you could download these documents.

The info is certainly out there, but I don't want this forum to be the one stop shop for thieves and bored kids. If I had the internet when I was a boy, this site would have gotten me into a LOT of trouble. Now if anyone put's in the effort and start learning about this stuff the normal way (reading, practicing, taking notes) and then they want to chat then it's all good .
Thanks to all who had a look, I hope it was entertaining.
-LC

[femurat]

I'm happy you started manipulating, it's a very rewarding aspect of the hobby, and probably the most difficult to start up.
I'm a bit surprised about the "censoring"... this forum doesn't have a restricted area like others, so it's clear the purpose of the forum is to freely share knowledge with everyone. So I don't get why did you black your test combo? There's nothing secret in a test combo. It's your topic so you can do what you want. I'm just surprised.
Back on topic, sometimes I have a hard time with LaGard locks, the wheels mask each other making very difficult to find a gate and to determine which wheel is it on. It may be easier to start with a S&G lock.

Cheers

[Libertyclicks]

I'm a bit surprised about the "censoring"... this forum doesn't have a restricted area like others, so it's clear the purpose of the forum is to freely share knowledge with everyone.

Thanks for posting femurat and good to meet you. When I posted that I had success with manipulation I had a few people express concern about being too liberal with the info. I choose to show enough to solicit discussion not show someone exactly what to do.
Thanks for your interest, if you want to see exactly what I did I'm happy to email you the graphs, but you all ready know don't you

Back on topic, sometimes I have a hard time with LaGard locks, the wheels mask each other making very difficult to find a gate and to determine which wheel is it on. It may be easier to start with a S&G lock.

Thanks I am having a lot of trouble with try number 2. Each time I graph it's a bit different. I'd like to have another lock to try S&G, diebold, etc.

[Oldfast]

....sometimes I have a hard time with LaGard locks, the wheels mask each other making very difficult
to find a gate and to determine which wheel is it on. It may be easier to start with a S&G lock....

I'm glad you chimed in here Femurat... this was something I was wondering about.

I agree. At first, I wasn't sure, only because I've mounted and worked with only one LaGard.
But I've recently mounted a DIEBOLD. The wheel design is nearly identical to LaGard and
react the same way. I'm not sure if the egg-shaped wheels are an intentional design, or
just a lack of quality control... but they do indeed make for a 'shadowing' effect.

The other problem I've encountered with both the LaGard and DIBOLD is a very finicky
drive cam. It almost seems to 'float' a bit, making consistant readings quite difficult.

The S&G's I've manipulated seem to be a breeze in comparison!