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Posted: **Sun Jan 06, 2013 6:33 pm**

GWiens2001 wrote:....Do you feel that the drag was intentionally designed as a minipulation-hindering device on this lock?....

Most certainly not by design, no. Probably isolated just to this particular lock beacause of the wear. Wouldn't hurt for me to service it either. Also, the drag actually was not nearly as bad as I made it out to be. Really, just yet another dial with another feel to it... I just had to refine my touch a bit along with the grip I chose. I kinda like to write some of my thoughts at the beginning just as they occurred at the time of the manipulation, even if at that time they were a little off.

Posted: **Mon Jan 07, 2013 6:51 am**

Manipulation #5

SARGENT AND GREENLEAF R6700 Series
(standard ... Group 2 ... 3 wheel ... key change ... spring loaded fence)

Been seeing these on alot of gun safes as of late. They're so beautiful, I just had to get one.
I also couldn't resist spending a little extra money for some nice walnut on which to mount it.

As usual, after a lock has been mounted, its' first stop is with the gorgeous Alison (my official combo-change girl)

The approach I've taken here, is a method I first seen utilized by Mark Bates.
Rather than elaborating on it once again, simply refer back to Manipulation #2 if you're interested.
But a quick recap: We know that w3 will be the first to read in the majority of locks. Then w2, then w1.

Given this knowledge, we start out by immediately attacking wheel 3.
I park wheels 1 and 2 in the middle of the forbidden zone at 10... and run w3

-

- L32

Parking the first wheel at zero, I now run w2 while placing w3 on its known gate at 32.

- R54.5 - L32

Finding the final piece to this puzzle is now a matter of trial and error.
I simply run w1 while placing wheels 2 and 3 on their known gates, until...

OPEN: L80 - R54.5 - L32

My personal best free-spin time to date!!

. . . . . . . . . CONCLUSIONS . . . . . . . . .

Not every lock is going to read this way, nor fall into place so perfectly as it did here.
Nevertheless, this experience was a huge confidence booster for me as I looked back
to my beginnings just 2 months ago... viewtopic.php?p=62015#p62015

However, at this point I know just enough about manipulation to know I don't know shit! lol
I will not make the mistake of replacing my confidence with cockiness, and allow my mind
to close up. I have an enormous, ENORMOUS amout to be learned yet. It's only the start.

. . . . . . . . . . . . QUESTIONS . . . . . . . . . . . .

Rather than posing more questions, I think I'll leave this section blank for a change.
If you have a hankerin' to give some answers though.... there's plenty of
open-ended questions yet to be had throughout this thread. hint hint lol

As always: I thoroughly welcome & appreciate ANY comments, corrections, advice, etc. on manipulation.
Also, if I may be so bold to add this time: I would be overjoyed to receive any pm's or emails
in regards to manipulation... be it a certain book you'd recommend I seek out, a PDF you're
willing to share, or some obscure website I've yet to come across. Anything's appreciated!

If not, that's ok too!

I WILL eventually reach my destination regardless...
only difference is that the road just might be a bit longer with more curves. lol

Posted: **Mon Jan 07, 2013 7:49 am**

Mike,

Congratulations on a personal best! Looks like Alison took pity on you. :razz:

Great to see that as your skills are growing and maturing, you still have the right attitude about your skills and learning.

Gordon

Posted: **Mon Jan 07, 2013 7:13 pm**

Thanks Gordon

Posted: **Tue Jan 08, 2013 7:31 am**

I stopped by a safe shop yesterday afternoon to inquire about used locks for sale. They also have a few locksmiths there that i have a good rapport with. Showed the lockies a few graphs I had done, and the older one knew exactly what they were. Then their main safe guy (owner of the place) came over and looked. A newer safe tech came with him and asked me what the sheets were.

I told him "Thats what he (pointing to the owner) does", to which he responded "No I don't. I open them, but I don't manipulate them."

I was floored. Their main safe guy doesn't manipulate?!? Just grabbs his drill without even trying? And the newer safe 'tech' does not even recognize a graph at all?

Gordon

Posted: **Tue Jan 08, 2013 10:09 am**

GWiens2001 wrote:....I was floored. Their main safe guy doesn't manipulate?!? Just grabbs his drill without even trying? And the newer safe 'tech' does not even recognize a graph at all?....

Yeah, I'd to love hear from some of the safe techs here on the forum that work in this field on a daily basis.

Just how often is a safe drilled as opposed to dialing diagnostics or manipulation? And let's not downplay drilling.
It's not always necessarily the 'easy way in'! Truly an art in and of itself, requiring a GREAT deal of knowledge!
I've read some brilliant penetration stories involving spactacular ingenuity after a well placed hole was drilled.

Being a hobbiest exploring only one aspect on safes (manipulation), my thoughts are mores speculation really.
But the safe guys you talked with kinda remind me of the many locksmiths we have today; Who.... granted,
are VERY good & VERY efficient at what they do... are not all too apt at picking (beyond srubbing/jiggling).

Also, I'd imagine there's a great many lockouts that occur due to some malfunction within the lock.
A certain component has worked its' way loose over the years, or finally broke completely. In such
instances, manipulation is not even an option... and drilling is the ONLY means of entry.

Posted: **Tue Jan 08, 2013 10:29 am**

Mike, the company I work for has one guy dedicated to safes for all aspects of safes but manipulation is not on the menu. The way the company looks at it as well as many of the customers is that the expense to drill and repair is worth gambling success for up to a couples of hours when you can drill and repair in less time.

I really want to learn manipulation but it will be recreational for me they would not apply it here.

Posted: **Tue Jan 08, 2013 10:46 am**

A case of reliability & efficiency vs time & cost (to both you AND the customer).

This only makes sense. If you're trying to make a living and please a number of customers in a
timely and professional manner... a line must be drawn somewhere for the sake of efficiency.

Posted: **Wed Jan 16, 2013 8:25 am**

My new best time: 6:27

Certainly an ego-booster that should be followed with an ego-deflater...

So next up, I'll be sharing with you an EPIC FAIL. lol

Posted: **Wed Jan 16, 2013 5:09 pm**

6:27???

Not bad for a rookie! ;-)

You are doing great, Mike!

Gordon

Posted: **Wed Jan 16, 2013 6:53 pm**

Congratulations Oldfast!
I've enjoyed reading your postings on your safe work, even though some of it's greek to me. :smile:

Posted: **Wed Jan 16, 2013 7:20 pm**

@libertyclicks

But if you read it in a mirror while standing on your head, it all becomes clear. :mrgreen:

Gordon

Posted: **Thu Jan 17, 2013 4:47 pm**

GWiens2001 wrote:6:27???

Not bad for a rookie!

You are doing great, Mike!

Gordon

Yeah, I'm really not expecting that lightning fast time to occurr very often. lol
Just so happened that each gate was found not too far from where I started my search.

I always look forward to your thoughts Gordon... thanks for following along

How are you comin'? Have you found the time to get your dial mounted yet?

Libertyclicks wrote:Congratulations Oldfast!
I've enjoyed reading your postings on your safe work, even though some of it's greek to me.

Thanks! I hear ya though... I use to do the same thing looking at safe related stuff.
It intrigued me, so I'd look, but really... it was like trying to read a chinese newspaper. lol

But it's not as complicated as I always thought it was. Eventually, maybe when I actually know something...
I'd like to put a little somethin' together that might help others get into this. But that's a ways off yet!

Posted: **Thu Jan 17, 2013 6:54 pm**

Oldfast wrote:I always look forward to your thoughts Gordon... thanks for following along
How are you comin'? Have you found the time to get your dial mounted yet?

Just finished the final fitting of the wood frame and the cutting and drilling of the Lexan to fit the frame and secure the lock today. Have the flu, so not doing much. Hopefully will get the oak stained and finished tomorrow. Then final reassembly and it will be done. Making the lock into a cutaway is just gonna have to wait until I feel better. :-(

Working entirely with hand tools, except for a router for the grooves, on white oak, so it is slow going.

You can rest assured the final job of the display case will be posted here as soon as it is done. Then will update it when I finally make the cutaway. Don't want to take the lock out of commission long enough for a cutaway at this time. Just want to get the display case done so I can manipulate it without the dial ring moving.

Gordon

P.S. Oldfast, you may look forward to my responses, but not half as much as I look forward to your posts!

Posted: **Thu Jan 17, 2013 9:04 pm**

I guess the flu is quite intense this year from what I've heard. Knocks ya out for like 2-3 weeks! :/
GET WELL SOON my friend

....... Can't wait to see the finished project! Sounds beautiful.

.:: Keypicking :: Anything And Everything For Locksmiths, Hobbyist Lock Pickers, Locksport, Lock Picking, lockpicks, cutaways and Security. Simply The Best Lockpicking Forum Around!

Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

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