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Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 3:05 am
by Oldfast
castagnojohn wrote:I have really enjoyed "safe chronicles" and have learned a lot by following your posts. It is great to see your progress and the fact that you don't have a stick up your butt about sharing information. I have numerous books on this subject and lock mounts too. Hoping to get going on manipulation very soon. Thanks for the info and inspiration. John

Thank you sir! Manipulation is a wonderful thing & a huge part of my life today.
It's great to hear you're enjoying it... and hopefully for years to come!

madsamurai wrote:Don't know how I missed this last one, but great post as always, Oldfast. Timely, too, as I'm about to finally mount a couple of Diebolds to play with and your tips will almost certainly give me a head-start.
Oldfast wrote:I'm identifying this one as a very early version in the 900 Series (produced from 1954-1970). But corrections are welcomed!

You may be right, I've not seen the 900 series locks yet and wouldn't know the difference, but I have a 177-23 that looks absolutely identical (except that it's left-mounted), including the lack of relocker and ball-bearing. Mine doesn't have any serial numbers or other information besides the model, so I have no idea about production dates, etc.

Nice! Hope it helps... and hope to hear about your spinnin with 'em. Always good to see ya my friend :D


On a side note: Has fuck-it-bucket changed their 3rd party sharing policy again?! LOOK!! AAAAALL my photos have been restored :spinning: Hundreds and hundreds of 'em. I'm even goin' back to some of the oldies, lol. The AMERICAN LOCK . The SLAYMAKER article. Or how about the J.B. Miller, remember THIS short lived fetish? lol. Anyway, I never paid the $400+ they were demanding, so I dunno what the hells goin' on... but I'm thinking it won't last for long and all the photos will be taken down again.

Anyone know what's going on with it?

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 4:26 am
by L4R3L2
Hi Mike,

I have a couple quick questions which come to mind right away, before I figure out what my other questions were, lol.

I've seen your videos showing the hi/low test approaching from one direction, and a couple others. Good grief, you're fast! I had to really concentrate on the rotation direction and end points to figure out what you were showing, and even then it was sometimes hard to tell which way it was spinning it was going so fast! Which brings me to my first question. I've read to dial slowly and smoothly.....that if the numbers are blurred, it's too fast, which I think is a bit of an exaggeration. I understand the principle that the tiny tabs on the brass fly could become peened of snap off, a snap off resulting in a lockout. In all these years of spinning, have you ever had a fly break? Have you ever noticed any peening on the flys upon disassembly?

The other question is one I've had from the very beginning. You, and several others, have recommended a publication entitled The National Locksmith Guide To Manipulation. I don't seem to be able to find that title at any of the usual sources. I'd like to add that one to my library. Where are you guys finding them?

Thank you in advance. I'll be back with more questions as I recall them.

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 9:32 pm
by MHM

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:08 am
by Oldfast
Although they're authentic, let's face it.... those vids are me going balls to the walls trying to appease the camera and basically show off, lol. In fact, if you watch some of them very closely you'll notice some very sloppy dialing that could've easily cost me an opening. They're entertaining mostly, but as you've done, they can be somewhat educational if you focus on 'em long enough.

My own mounted locks are one thing, but you'll rarely see me spinning quite that crazily on a lock that's in use. It's best to err on the side of caution with someone else's safe. I'd rather have an open safe that takes a bit longer than to have something go bad. It's always difficult to know what kinda condition a lock is in. And I'd hate to have to inform them of what I did... and that their only option now is to hire someone and pay to have it drilled.

That being said, I'll still spin rather fast on some locks. Once you get a little more acclimated as to where the wheels are at all times and when they'll make contact with each other... you can still spin quick... simply slow down just a millisecond before contact. Also, spinning fast doesn't necessarily equate to quick openings! Some folks spin rather slow and yet consistently have fast openings - faster than me for sure.

L4R3L2 wrote:. . . . I've read to dial slowly and smoothly.....that if the numbers are blurred, it's too fast, which I think is a bit of an exaggeration. . . .

And I agree, it is exaggerated. This is usually for the benefit of the owners/users of the safe though, who tend to 'whirl' the dial almost like they think it's gonna continue spinning like a Russian roulette wheel (not joking). I too will overly stress the importance of slow dialing as I demonstrate how to work their newly found numbers. Yet, directly following my clear advice, on their very first attempt... there they go! So I guess it's sorta like the concept of putting up a 5mph speed limit sign in hopes that people will at least keep it under 10.

Honestly, I think you could dial the combo each and every time at a fairly moderate, even a semi-fast pace without necessarily accelerating what would otherwise be a normal rate-of-wear for a mechanical lock. Really, from what I've seen, most locks are much tougher than we give 'em credit for. But you'll never catch me saying that to a customer! lol

It seems to me though there's a major distinction between an owner repeatedly dialing open their safe for years versus our one-time manipulation session with it. I half wonder if many of us (including myself) have taken these cautionary dialing instructions and applied em a little too much(?) to manipulation. Yes, an enormous amount of force can be generated between these small parts - we do know that. But we've also seen plenty of 50-80 year old locks that have been thoroughly abused and rarely if ever serviced... still working. Just sayin'.


L4R3L2 wrote:. . . . In all these years of spinning, have you ever had a fly break?
Have you ever noticed any peening on the flys upon disassembly? . . . .

No. Of the safes I've opened I've never really seen much wear or deformation on the flys. Nor have I ever had anything break during a manipulation. I have however seen some pretty worn and distorted drive pins on the cams of some of the older safes. Would be interesting to hear from some older long-time safe techs as to what they've seen though.

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 4:18 am
by L4R3L2
Oldfast wrote:That being said, I'll still spin rather fast on some locks. Once you get a little more acclimated as to where the wheels are at all times and when they'll make contact with each other... you can still spin quick... simply slow down just a millisecond before contact.


Thank you for the reply. This is pretty much what I was thinking. It would be the initial slam that would be most likely to cause damage, not the ultimate speed of the spin, assuming nothing causes a wheel to seize during mid-spin.



Thank you, thank you! I'll give it a read. I have a couple friction fenced locks that this touches on, so that right there is a big plus. Are these available in hard copy? I prefer referring to books than to a screen. I know I can print it out, but a bound book is always nice. I know, I'm 'old school'.

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2019 10:44 pm
by xeo
Sticky.

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 5:49 am
by Oldfast
xeo wrote:Sticky.

ADHESIVE! :spinning: ADHESIVE!

And I'm not gonna lie... feels damn good.
Worked long & hard for this piece of tape :D

Thanks for the recognition Admins/Mods!

Xeooo0OO :-o OO0oooooooo!

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 5:37 am
by L4R3L2
I always did wonder why this thread wasn't a sticky, but didn't want to rock the boat. Congrats, Oldfast! And, thank you administrators!

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 12:19 pm
by 10ringo10
Oldfast wrote:
xeo wrote:Sticky.

ADHESIVE! :spinning: ADHESIVE!

And I'm not gonna lie... feels damn good.
Worked long & hard for this piece of tape :D

Thanks for the recognition Admins/Mods!

Xeooo0OO :-o OO0oooooooo!


BIG thanks to oldfast for your time and dedication over the years :razz: (Mod Power)

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 1:09 am
by Oldfast
Hey, thanks guys :)

If nothing else, this thread helps illustrate some things NOT to do. Ha!
Along the way, I found some techniques that didn't pan out...
but certainly I also came across some useful tricks and stuff too.

p.s. I've plans for another thread (soon I hope)
that will contain more definitive writings/articles.
Some of the topics will surely end up addressing
the mistakes and misconceptions I displayed
throughout my journey here in this thread.


Always such a pleasure learning from and sharing with you folks!

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 8:45 am
by MartinHewitt
And in a few years you will certainly publish the book "10 Years of Oldfast".

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:55 pm
by AL usher69
I have been getting better manipulating different safe locks. I have some charts that i will be posting soon. I was told to read and read and read again. I'm horrible at understanding most of what I read thanks to ADHD. I will go ever what i have read and every time i seem to learn something i miss the other times i read the same information. I need to thank you and other guys on here that do help there's no judgement just helpful advice. I enjoy reading Safe Chronicles not only do i learn valuable information I get pumped up to want to learn more.
When i walk into a locksmith store i get so excited and over whelmed looking at the locks and safes. The problem there is they look at you as your a bad guy and wont talk to you unless you want something to buy. When I mention anything pertaining to manipulating safes and they start asking me what are you wanting to do something wrong. Most of the time I believe they have no clue unless it has to do with drilling.
Well anyway great post and thank you for taking time to explain things. Its people like you who keep this craft, sport, hobby alive and exciting.....

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:30 pm
by AL usher69
Oldfast wrote:
manipulation #16


Mosler
302-402

Group2 ... 3 wheel ... key change ... spring loaded fence

ImageImage

At this point, I've now experienced a small handful of various brands, including....
Sargent & Greenleaf, Yale, Diebold, LaGard, Ilco Unican, LeFebure, VanGuard, and Rench.

So I'm looking to expand this list. Imparticular, I've really been gunning for a Mosler.
You may have seen the breakdown I recently posted on this one. I found it to be a little
beyond me for now. So it's currently setting pretty in my collection while I focus on this one.
This particular model though, has standard wheels and does not feature Mosler's shutter driver.

Image

Mosler uses a double-pronged spline key to securely join the drive cam and spindle as one solid unit.

Also typical for Mosler is the friction plug: a spring loaded circular delrin piece within the wheel post.
It applies constant pressure to the spline/cam/spindle assembly to insure smooth and proper function.
In addition, I find it really slows down my spinning and also dampens feedback within the contact area.

And one last note... the fence looks to be more or less a roll pin of sorts. First I've seen of one like this.



Image
...and in a very large world... a small stack of joy



Image
flip-sided wheel view



As always, I begin the manipulation by first gathering some standard info.

CONTACT AREA
Approximately 11 incs wide
LCP 93 . . . . . RCP 4

ROTATIONAL CONVERSION
pick-up differences for wheels 3, 2, 1 were:
.2 .... .6 .... 1.2 .... respectively



My preferences seem to constantly change, but lately I've been using a right rotation.
Mainly due to the speed and ease of dialing it seems to offer me, opposed to left rotation.

I prefer to map every 2 intervals, and my readings are now taken within one tenth of an inc.

Image

A profile of the wheel pack as a whole is created, and two clearly defined gates appear at 18.5 and 50.

In this case there exists a "most likely" scenario. Given the tendency of many locks, there's a good possibility
that the most definitive gate (50) is w3, and the other (18.5) belongs to w2. Obviously, we can't simply assume
this. But if we have to explore all possibilities.... we might as well begin our search in the most likely of places.

I tag gates to wheels through isolation. All this means is that I'm running a single wheel through the area
in question to see if the gate indication occurs. If it does, I know absolutely that it belongs to that wheel.
There's no need for a reading at every increment as I've done here... but it helps to illustrate what I seen.

Image
One graph containing two different isolations.

First, look at the one on the right: 1+2 @ R18.5 ..... 3AL
Or, maybe easier for you to visualize... R18.5 - R18.5 - AL
I park wheels 1 and 2 at the other gate indication (18.5), hoping this will allow
the fence to rest predominantly on wheel 3 as I run it through the area of 50.
The gate appears (with even greater rate of change than in the initial graph).
Without reservation, I tag the gate at 50 to wheel 3.

Turning our attention to w2 (next likely wheel to read after w3)
Could our other gate indication at 18.5 belong to wheel 2?
Again, I use isolation to answer this question: 1@R50...2AR...3@L50.2
And again, maybe easier to visualize it this way: R50 - AR - L50.2
The drop occurs and I can undoubtedly tag it with wheel 2.

:???: - R18.5 - L50.2

And we all know what happens once
2 of 3 gates have been discovered.....

game over :twisted:

OPEN: L82 - R18.5 - L50.2

Image

. . . . . . . . . . QUESTIONS . . . . . . . . . .

I was hoping someone would take a moment to 'school' me a bit.
I'd like to gain a better understanding of Moslers' identification system.
What does each of these series of letters and/or numbers elude to?

Here on the back of the lock body is an eight digit number.
Image

Pressed into the lock's cover plate is "302-402".
Image
And on the tag, another two sets of distinct codes:
No. 479321
BP-216


I know this is a old post i need someone to help explain this "And again, maybe easier to visualize it this way: R50 - AR - L50.2"
The drop occurs and I can undoubtedly tag it with wheel 2. i go right to 50 then it says AR then L50.2. If im going right to 50 how would i continue AR then L50.2 i just cant seem to understand cause if i turn right to 50 i would have to turn left or the wheels move off of 50 i hope im explaining my delima

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:01 pm
by MartinHewitt
R50 - AR - L50.2 should mean: W1 is set to R50. W2 is scanned Around Right. W3 is set in this process each time to L50.2.

To do so, it is necessary to move W2 around left after setting W1 before starting the scan.

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:38 pm
by AL usher69
Thank you very much. It takes me a while when reading the information cause im more a hands on person.