Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

[Jaakko Fagerlund]

Oh dear.

Now I not only read this entire thread and the Blaze article, but have started on the National Locksmith's guide and am hungrily browsing ebay... What is happening?! Help!

And all your Euros will end up in to an endless shopping spree of locks, tools and subscriptions to porn sites as the girlfriend left you after the first lock

If you need tools, you know my email

[Oldfast]

Something I've been wanting to do for awhile now, but just never got around to doing.
Well, Riyame's recent gift (pair of small S&G dials) finally got me to do it. Thanks Eric!

Couple days of wood working (gluing, cutting, drilling, sanding) and this mount's ready for several coats of paint.



While the paint dries, I find a couple stray locks and clean 'em up..... You know what's coming!



Double whammo!









Originally I was just gonna post some pics of this neat Riy-inspired Duo-Dial mount.
But you know I've gotta take these babies for a spin... might as well document it, eh?

So with a dial in each hand... and a pencil in each foot... juuuust kidding, lol.
That'd make a cool vid someday, but for now I think we'll take it one at a time.

Twin S&G's
manipulation
27 & 28

READINGS
RIGHT contact point ONLY
...taken in tenths every 2 incs

My initial AWR (not shown) produced very little to go on. But an AWL reveals plenty:
A couple well defined gates at 44.5 & 77 along with some possibilities for the final gate.



Isolation verifies both these as gates, as well as tags them to their rightful owners.

- R44 - L77

There's several areas that might hold w1's gate: 98-10, 25-ish, 55-65, and 88-ish.
None of these pan out... so it's time to just run w1 ALL the way around until...

OPEN: L16 - R44 - L77

This was a beautifully smooth spin! Textbook.
His sister, however, did not want to play so nice...

manipulation #28

Again, I start out with my preferred AWR (not shown)... and again I'm left with nothing to work with.
I didn't take the time to reproduce this AWR free-spin so I could post a pic of it. But if I had you'd see
a nearly straight line that fluctuated only a few times, and only by a tenth. Readings were 13.3 or 13.4

Thankfully, an AWL produces a positive gate at 86 along with three semi-curious areas to work with.



I had a surprisingly difficult time tagging 86 to a wheel. But after pulling
every trick in the book I could muster up I was pretty well convinced...

- - L86

Time to run wheels 1&2 together. Rather than run 'em all the way around, I first touched on 3 areas hoping for a break.
First stop, 70-ish. A very minute drop of only a tenth. But the signature was promising enough to bait me into chasing it
around for several minutes. In the end it was something I just felt I could do nothing with at the moment. So I moved on.
Second stop, 50-40... nothin'. Third stop, 10-2... bingo. Isolation (1+3 @ L86 ... 2AR through the area of 6) tags it to w2.

- R6 - L86



Running w1 for the money. Hoping for an opening without having to run the entire clock,
I look over my AWL graph. There's basically four areas I want to touch on: 40, 50, 65, 70.

OPEN: L64 - R6 - L86

Thanks SO much Eric! Once again, your generosity has provided me with many hours of enjoyment.



And speaking of generosity... a recent gift from the 'Lock-Goblin' himself! Thank you Gordon!!
How cool?! He said the top salesman's at Mosler would have these pen holders on their desk.



I've tried cracking this one to no avail It's just beyond my skill level for now I guess.

[Riyame]

Awesome looking mount! Glad you enjoyed the dials.

[Oldfast]

Thanks. I'm really happy with how the mount turned out. And yeah, I love the dials

[GWiens2001]

That mount looks incredible. Very nicely done. Now you need to make one with a wooden bolt mechanism - a small wooden safe door. With two locks.

And you are very welcome for the pen holder.

Gordon

[Oldfast]

Thanks Gordon! Something I thought about afterwards... would've been cool to leave a little
more space between the dials and put a rim cylinder in. Medeco, Mogul, or maybe an ASSA.

Maybe next time.

[Oldfast]

manipulation #29

Wanted to share with you an 'Oldie but Goodie'


DIEBOLD
900 Series



I'm identifying this one as a very early version in the 900 Series (produced from 1954-1970). But corrections are welcomed!
NOTE: The dial, drive cam, and homemade spline key are NOT ORIGINAL to this lock. But the odds of me finding these
pieces or a cover plate (also absent) are probably pretty slim. So I figured it's time to get it running with what I have.
More clues as to its' age?... there is no re-locker of any kind, nor is there a ball detent to help stabilize the bolt.



Ever wonder just how much is too much?



Yeah, I'd say this is a bit excessive on the lube. Any more and this thread's gonna be XXX. lol
In fact, I didn't even realize there was a dial ring bushing separate from the dial. It wasn't until
I had chipped away most of the grease when I realized it had shifted and it could be pulled off.



Took a while, but here it is all cleaned up and ready to be properly lubricated. Didn't think to take
another picture after I greased it, but if I had it would look nearly identical to the above photo.
I use AeroShell 22 Grease. A very thin, nearly invisible layer on both bearing surfaces
will do just fine. This dial will now run smooth and true for a long time to come.





Group2 ... 3 wheel ... key change ... spring-loaded fence

CONTACT AREA
Approximately 7 incs wide
LCP 88 . . . . . RCP 95

ROTATIONAL CONVERSION
unable to reliably determine

READINGS
LEFT contact point ONLY
...taken in tenths every 2 incs

Many of the locks throughout this thread were manipulated by focusing on the RCP.
LaGard, Ilco, Mosler, S&G, etc... these locks all have what I call a 'normal' drive cam.
The right-hand side of the cam's gate has a gradual slope, allowing the lever nose to
ride up & out more easily when being locked. Therefore the RCP gives us more info.

Looking at the U-shaped gate on this Diebold's drive cam, both sides are rather steep.
If you look closely though you'll notice one side (left) is slightly rounded in comparison
to the other - that's where we'll focus our efforts. And by the way, you might approach
an old Diebold dial and think you have this all figured out... when on the other side of
the door lurks a 178-23 (which uses a normal drive cam AND LaGard type wheels)!
Sorry to throw a wrench into the mix, lol... but thought I'd keep ya on your toes

Another thing; One of the first things I do when I sit down in front of a Diebold is lower my expectations.
Generally (but not always) the rate of change in your readings will be minute with these. So we want to
change our mindset to view even the smallest differences as relatively large fluctuations. Tiny=Large.

My readings are usually taken in tenths. You might read in eighths. These are two slightly different
scales, but we can expect roughly the same thing. I'll be expecting at most, a 1 or 2 tenths
rate of change... you will likely see a rate of change of approximately 1/8, give or take.

BINDING ORDER
3 - 2 - 1
UNKNOWN COMBO
L39 - R88 - L29

The first spin (AWL) produces a promising gate (28.5). The other area (55-90) actually provides for some good discussion.
Looking for the best reading our eyes are naturally drawn to 70. But if we take a look at this area again, but with something
else in mind (looking for the greatest rate of change) then we must also consider 90, where a change of 2/10 has occurred

Neither of these (70,90) are confirmed nor discounted at this time. We just dunno. So let's focus on what we DO know... 28.5



(the portion to the left in the below graph) shows my isolation attempt to tag 28.5 to a wheel.
I chose to use 70.5 (best reading on graph) as a window. Parking wheels 1&2 there, I run w3
by itself through the area of 28. The gate does show up and I can successfully tag 28.5 to w3.
- - R28.5
Had it not shown for w3 I would have continued isolating wheels.
Wheel 2 next, then finally w1... always leaving the others at 70.5



(the portion to the right in the above graph) I hoped running 1&2 through the area (55-90) would now give me
something a little more definitive, considering w3 was now at its' known gate. But I was NOT expecting it to be
quite so obvious! lol. An enormous gate sig appears at 88. It jumps by 1/2 an inc then plunges back down 6/10.

Again, I'm looking to use isolation as a means for tagging this gate to wheels 1 or 2.
I focus on isolating w2 first. I want to take 3 readings through the area at 84, 88, 90.

The way in which I want to do it though essentially leaves me with a L-L-R configuration.
I want to park w1 at LEFT 70.5 ....but I also want to run w2 LEFT through the area of 88.
L70.5 - AL - R28.5
Why am I being so picking about w1? Wouldn't it be easier to just park it with right rotation?
1. The good area I'm looking to park w1 within is only 1 inc wide (70-71).
2. We know w1 always has the largest rotational difference of all the wheels.
3. From the start I was unable to determine exactly what these differences were.
I'd rather just alleviate any doubts by placing it exactly the way it was originally found - left.

4X LEFT......70.5
3X RIGHT....80
3X LEFT......84
2X RIGHT...28.5

The simplest way to look at this is to consider our 'target number' for wheel 2 (LEFT 84).
After placing w1 @ LEFT 70.5, we're FORCED to pick up wheels 3 & 2 with RIGHT rotation.
That's ok! Go ahead and pick 'em up with right rotation. Continue around until you've PASSED
the target number (84) and stop at, lets say 80. Go LEFT, pick 'em BACK up and bring em to 84.
Summary: Pickup wheel(s) and bring them beyond the intended target using the undesired rotation.
Then switch directions to pick them up again and bring them to the target using the desired rotation.

I'm now set up to push w2 around left taking readings at 84, 88, and 90.
Naturally, w3 is brought to its' known gate (28.5) before each reading.
And w1 remains undisturbed at L70.5 throughout this process.
Reading peaks at 88 and I can now tag it to wheel 2.

- L88 - R28.5

Spinnin' for the money now..... I cash in at 40

OPEN: R40 - L88 - R28.5

Some other Diebolds if you're interested:
p.6 Manipulation#11 Diebold 17823
p.8 Manipulation#13 Diebold 177-23
p.11 Manipulation#19 Diebold 177-39



. .. ... ... ....Some Thoughts on Readings.... ... ... .. .

Recall my initial AWL gragh and the gate signature that was produced at 28.5


The photos below illustrate this gate as seen through the dial.
The first reading is taken with AWL 26 (prior to the gate).
The second at AWL 28 (gate is now under the fence).




My eyes identified these readings as 88 even & 88 2/10. You however might be looking at these right now
with a slightly different interpretation. 88 1/10 & 88 3/10? After all, both readings are on the verge of being
the next division up. Point is, none of these views are incorrect... as long as you stick to them throughout
the entire manipulation. If you're consistent with the identification of your divisions, fluctuations will show.

And we've all experienced what I call 'gray-area' or 'gray-matter'. This is when a reading lands perfectly
BETWEEN two of your divisions. Exactly between 1/4 and 3/8 for example... whatcha gonna call that?
These are decisions that should be made before you ever start spinning, lest you find yourself in one
long drawn out debate that continues all the way around the dial. Every dial and opening index can
pose new challenges. Spend whatever time necessary within an inc. Be decisive... then stick to it.

Reading in tenths leaves less room for gray-area, but certainly doesn't alleviate the problem entirely.
I still sometimes end up in "the great debate." And then there's dials that don't take kindly to tenths,
and you're left working within the width of a human hair. Literally, lol. Sometimes reverting back to
eighths just makes sense simply because it suits a particular dial. Whatever breeds consistency.

Fluctuations are all relative to the footprints left behind us. We're constantly comparing our
current reading with the previous reading(s). Noticing these changes will be dependent on
our ability to call a reading what it is and repeatedly doing so through the entire process.


Happy Spinnin' Folks

[femurat]

The way in which I want to do it though essentially leaves me with a L-L-R configuration.
I want to park w1 at LEFT 70.5 ....but I also want to run w2 LEFT through the area of 88.
L70.5 - AL - R28.5
Why am I being so picking about w1? Wouldn't it be easier to just park it with right rotation?
1. The good area I'm looking to park w1 within is only 1 inc wide (70-71).
2. We know w1 always has the largest rotational difference of all the wheels.
3. From the start I was unable to determine exactly what these differences were.
I'd rather just alleviate any doubts by placing it exactly the way it was originally found - left.

4X LEFT......70.5
3X RIGHT....80
3X LEFT......84
2X RIGHT...28.5

The simplest way to look at this is to consider our 'target number' for wheel 2 (LEFT 84).
After placing w1 @ LEFT 70.5, we're FORCED to pick up wheels 3 & 2 with RIGHT rotation.
That's ok! Go ahead and pick 'em up with right rotation. Continue around until you've PASSED
the target number (84) and stop at, lets say 80. Go LEFT, pick 'em BACK up and bring em to 84.
Summary: Pickup wheel(s) and bring them beyond the intended target using the undesired rotation.
Then switch directions to pick them up again and bring them to the target using the desired rotation.

Great job, and clear explanation about positioning the wheels the same way you find the gate. IIRC we discussed about it some time ago, this is a good explanation of that concept. It's a very important thing to remember. Takes a little effort but can make a huge difference.

Cheers

[Oldfast]

Thanks Femurat. Spent alot of time tryin' to word that portion in a simple/understandable way :/

And although it made sense to me... I wasn't sure if it would help or make sense to others. lol

Hope you've been well my friend.

[Riyame]

Very nice. That is an interesting dial bushing, I have never seen one like that before.

[Oldfast]

Very nice. That is an interesting dial bushing, I have never seen one like that before.

Yeah, neither had I. Purchased a pair of Diebolds (177-22).... and this was the dial that came on 'em.

[Snader]

Holy chips Oldfast,

I haven't visited this thread in a while.
Isnt't it time you turned professional or at least part time professional?

[Oldfast]

Holy chips Oldfast,

I haven't visited this thread in a while.
Isnt't it time you turned professional or at least part time professional?

Well, I still have an enormous amount to learn & experience before I would feel capable.
But I do very much fancy the idea of doing some of this stuff part or even full time in my
later years (health allowing). Actually, I find myself daydreaming about it quite often. lol

I'd specialize only in lockouts (and maybe some routine maintenance or combo-changes).
Anything beyond that I would NOT be qualified to be doing. My state does not regulate the
trade. Legally, I can simply call myself a locksmith or a safe tech. without any qualifications
or credentials. Although I was excited to find this out when I first started checking into it - it's
really not a good thing. Many people out there working FAR outside the scope of their abilities.
We all see the results on the news about people be scammed and families being put in danger.

[castagnojohn]

I have really enjoyed "safe chronicles" and have learned a lot by following your posts. It is great to see your progress and the fact that you don't have a stick up your butt about sharing information. I have numerous books on this subject and lock mounts too. Hoping to get going on manipulation very soon. Thanks for the info and inspiration. John

[madsamurai]

Don't know how I missed this last one, but great post as always, Oldfast. Timely, too, as I'm about to finally mount a couple of Diebolds to play with and your tips will almost certainly give me a head-start.

I'm identifying this one as a very early version in the 900 Series (produced from 1954-1970). But corrections are welcomed!

You may be right, I've not seen the 900 series locks yet and wouldn't know the difference, but I have a 177-23 that looks absolutely identical (except that it's left-mounted), including the lack of relocker and ball-bearing. Mine doesn't have any serial numbers or other information besides the model, so I have no idea about production dates, etc.