Help Identifying Combination Lock on Chubb-Mosler-TaylorSafe

[3KidsSafeCrackers]

Hi,
My kids (12, 12, 14) and I have been having fun manipulating safes that we find locally for free or close to free. We've read a few books and have gotten into two so far relatively easily. I brought home a big safe for us to try and so far we are having zero luck. It is a Chubb-Mosler-Taylor safe from a business in New Brunswick, Canada. It hadn't moved or been opened since 1988, combination is unknown. It is about 30"x30"x53" tall and incredibly heavy.
I'm using the all wheels right and plotting the contact points for the wheel pack. The problem we are having is the contact points are very faint and seem to be a little inconsistent. If someone could help me identify the make or model or type of lock on this safe then I'd have more certainty in what I'm doing.
It seems to have 4 wheels.
There seems to be an indication at 9 on wheel 4 which is within the forbidden zone I think?
Contact points are at 6 and 12.
I know I'm new here but anyone willing to help us identify this lock?

[MartinHewitt]

Most likely is a heavy/vault lock from S&G, if it isn't then it is probably a normal 6731. Manipulation-wise they are quite similar, but the vault lock is probably more difficult to probably lighter CPs and perhaps more precisely made wheels. But every lock has also its own personality determined by wear, dried up lube, lack of service, etc.. More important than an exact identification of that lock is that you listen to what it tells you.

If 9 is between the CPs, than it is in the forbidden zone. If the lever sits there low you can use it to park W4 to get more information about the other wheels even when 9 is not the number on W4.

Patience is the key.

[Cheesehead]

Most likely is a heavy/vault lock from S&G, if it isn't then it is probably a normal 6731. Manipulation-wise they are quite similar, but the vault lock is probably more difficult to probably lighter CPs and perhaps more precisely made wheels. But every lock has also its own personality determined by wear, dried up lube, lack of service, etc.. More important than an exact identification of that lock is that you listen to what it tells you.

If 9 is between the CPs, than it is in the forbidden zone. If the lever sits there low you can use it to park W4 to get more information about the other wheels even when 9 is not the number on W4.

Patience is the key.

Contact points are at 6 and 12.

Add in another vote for a 6500 series lock, on mine the contact points are 6 and 13. Also, all Martin's advice is correct

I'm using the all wheels right and plotting the contact points for the wheel pack.

2 questions: Have you tried AWL and are you willing to share some of these charts?

That is a nice looking safe, but I'm pretty sure it's quite heavy. Curious how you went about moving it?

Good luck with that!

[3KidsSafeCrackers]

I was locked out of this forum for several days but now that I can get back in yes I'll gladly share my progress. I'm just getting ready for work right now but will post some things later today.
Moving it was challenging but not impossible. I have a 5ton toe jack and I rented a pallet jack. two friends and I jacked it up and built a pallet under it, in situ, then used the pallet jack to roll it out to the sidewalk where my trailer was parked. From there we pulled it up on with a come-a-long and drove home. I'm not saying this was smart, my trailer was grossly overloaded and I was worried the axle would break or the floor boards but we made it the 100km (60 miles) home. At home I have a beam overhead and a 3 ton chain hoist so that was easier.

[3KidsSafeCrackers]

These are plots I took trying to find low spots in the wheel packs, saw this idea on this forum, find a low that isn't a gate and try and work down through low points to find a gate. I did it in 5 number increments except for wheel 4 where I inspected in more detail around 10.
The effort seems to have quit producing gains and I'm stumped. I will say that the contact points are much more pronounced when W4 is at 10. First image is the raw data plotted all on one chart. Second is the Area (12-6 roughly)

[MartinHewitt]

Looks good. There isn't much noise and you don't just have a flat line. I would scan W4 with W1@R10, W2@L40, W3@R60. Then pick something good on W4 and iterate through W2, W3 and W4 to optimize the lever down.

[3KidsSafeCrackers]

Hi, I've done as you suggested and ran that scan. Attached are the plots. I am not really sure what to do next. Maybe W1R10, W2L40, Scan W3, W4L38 ???
I really appreciate the help on this.

[MartinHewitt]

I am not a fan of CP area. If you look at your last CP area, it looks like around 10 is a great point and it might be even a gate there. But when you look at both graphs this shape is not there and the graphs do not agree. (I assume that numbers increase towards the top on both graphs.) On the LCP graph 14 looks like an excellent point. On the RCP 14 looks like the worst point. At 38 there is a slight agreement. So yes, that could be a choice. Or perhaps 50. On RCP there is a stable low range an LCP is not awful. Your choice for the next graph is a good one. When the lever sits low (low RCP, high LCP you can sometimes check W4 at 50. It is very little dialing and quickly done. You will then notice if one of these points is better or if it doesn't matter at the moment.

[3KidsSafeCrackers]

Alright I think I will abandon calculating the Area, it takes extra time and I was only doing it because I thought it might be better than reading the graphs. I'll go back to reading the graphs. Most likely the problem I'm having is that this lock is difficult and my first safe manipulated was a 120 year old safe and had obvious shapes where it was impossible to mistake a gate. It was a straight forward path through the manipulation. Will pick this back up tomorrow.

[MartinHewitt]

Yes, it is likely a difficult lock. Are the CPs difficult to feel?

[3KidsSafeCrackers]

Yes the CPs are very light. When I put wheel 4 at 9 or 10 they get much easier to feel but not as easy as the old Ahern safe from ~1890. We also opened a Sentry direct entry safe but that was a joke and we were under an hour.
I just can't imagine the gate on W4 is at 10 because this is between 6 and 12.
I think my next step is to set W4L10 and scan the pack but instead of every 5, every 2, just in case I skipped over an indication. Do you think there is a need to check every single number?

[webpirate]

That's the big brother to the one I did last year.

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CyM4-Y1A ... JkajlleA==

[webpirate]

Make your pointer sharper and use a more stable material. You will need to be able to measure 1/32 measurements.

[MartinHewitt]

Do you think there is a need to check every single number?

Usually every 2.5 numbers are checked and when a gate indication is found every number. Sometimes and some prefer to do generally every 2 numbers.

[3KidsSafeCrackers]

That's the big brother to the one I did last year.

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CyM4-Y1A ... JkajlleA==

WOW, thank you greatly for replying to my thread. That looks exactly like my safe. You've given me a renewed energy and belief that I'll get into it.

7 hours is a long time and I'm quite sure you are much more experienced than I am. Would you be kind enough to tell me any other secrets that you learned while manipulating that one.