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Failed to open old SG lock

PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2021 9:46 am
by femurat
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I was called to open an old vault door and failed. It was the first time I left a job after a day of work, without opening it. You can imagine I'm very sad about it.
Everything was going fine but I missed something.
At some time during the manipulation process I tried to move the knob and left it in the unlock direction, making the bolt work push against the lock bolt. This may be a newbie mistake that made some of my graphs flat. And many high-low tests were unhelpful. But I suspect there's something else that I missed.
Here are the 9 graphs I made. Any suggestion is appreciated.

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I have another chance to go there soon for a couple hours before the door gets drilled. The first thing I'm going to do is to use odd numbers instead of evens. Usually it doesn't make a difference, but this time it could.

Any idea of the lock model, based on the dial? Is it normal that the plastic brand is optical white while the dial paint is a bit yellow? Or maybe it was replaced for some reason?

Thanks :)

Re: Failed to open old SG lock

PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2021 5:05 pm
by bitbuster
Possibly a square spindled 6705 ???

Re: Failed to open old SG lock

PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2021 12:16 pm
by Alexander Mundy
In graph 5 that area around 42 screams gate signature to me. I would start by re-evaluating that area and see if I miss identified which wheel. Perhaps L10-R42-AL as a starting point? If not I'd re-evaluate L10.

Re: Failed to open old SG lock

PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2021 12:31 pm
by Alexander Mundy
Also, I assume at the start you dialed to be sure it wasn't for some reason a 4 wheel?

Re: Failed to open old SG lock

PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 2021 2:23 pm
by femurat
Thank you bitbuster. I thought it could have been a 6725 because I have one with a similar dial, but you're the guessing expert here!
Anything strange about the 6705? I mean, it should have no tricks to it, just a plain and simple S&G lock...

Alexander, thank you for pointing that out. I always start by counting the wheels, even before locating contact points.
I agree about 42 looking like a gate. I'll further look into it...

Cheers :)

Re: Failed to open old SG lock

PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 2021 9:53 pm
by MartinHewitt
I think this is just a normal modern dial. The yellowed white is sunk into surface and so can grab a lot of dirt. The whitish white is just flat. You can see the dial here: https://1010security.com/sg-dial-1.html The dial for the 6705 is of an older style. I think this safe has a 6700 series lock. My guess is a 6730, because the small part of the safe that I can see does not look that new and I think the 6730 was then most common.

Is it a Mauer key lock?

Re: Failed to open old SG lock

PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2021 11:31 am
by femurat
The key had only some numbers engraved on one side of the bow, nothing on the other side. So I'm not sure about the brand.
The house and vault door look quite old, 50 years maybe. I'm not sure about it though.

Following another thread, I ordered a simple audio amplifier. Let's see if it makes a difference.

Cheers :)

Re: Failed to open old SG lock

PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2021 1:02 pm
by MartinHewitt
The force is strong in you!

Re: Failed to open old SG lock

PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 3:50 pm
by femurat
Finally I went there and had a chance to play with this safe again. I went there with a completely different approach. The first time I underestimated the job.
This time I was better prepared in terms of:
LIGHT
There was a light in the room, but was far and not bright. I brought a portable light and this made a huge difference.
HEIGHT
I was sitting on a chair but the dial was higher than usual, so I had it too close to my face and had to work with my arms higher than usual. I brought a small ladder and a cushion to sit on, so I could be at the correct height to see the dial and comfortable with my arms.
HEAR
The small audio amplifier I bought worked very well for me to hear all the lock movements and contact points. Having something else, other than the touch to feel the contact points is very important with these old and big safe doors. The spindle is so long and the lock so far, that it's not easy as it is on my workbench. Hearing them really helped.
PRECISION
Knowing that this lock didn't forgive small mistakes, I was ready to be very precise and scrupulous. I took note of both contact points and was ready for a long job. Last time I thought it could have been a couple hours maximum. This time I was ready to work all day.

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Thanks to the help of all of you, I had a plan. 11 42,5 AL.

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But first of all, I verified the info I had. I studied carefully the only thing I was sure about: wheel #2 or #3 was 42,5. And there was a low area around 10 on wheel #1. So I decided to double check that area and see if there was a better place to park wheel #1. There wasn't, wheel #1 was covered by #2 or #3 at 42,5. Using 11 was a good plan.

So I double checked the gate center on wheels #2 and #3. It was 42,5 indeed.
I also made a few high-low test to see if, with the new conditions, I could get better results. I did!
Wheel #3 was still the better choice for that gate. Unexpected but good.

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It was time to start getting new info, and I followed my usual strategy: test more wheels together. Worst case scenario I waste half an hour. Best case scenario I get another gate. Comparing this graph to the similar one I made last time, clearly shows how different it is to get good readings in good general conditions.
As you can see, I got a perfect gate signature at 96. I was doing high-low tests but stopped writing down the results.
Trying to convert the dialing direction, with great surprise, I found nothing between 98 and 93 going Right.

This lock was going the wrong direction. I decided to brute force wheel #2 going Left... so dialed R L R L and then oscillated the dial on contact area until it was OPEN!

After opening the lock, I did not open the door so couldn't see what lock was inside.
I also won't reveal the last number, just to be on the SAFE side.

Thank you again for the help and support on this difficult job!

Cheers :)