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AMSEC CE1814 with S&G lock

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Ty_Bower

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Post Sat Nov 28, 2020 12:56 am

Re: AMSEC CE1814 with S&G lock

MartinHewitt wrote:So your first and your last graphs are AWLs, correct? They really do not have much in common.


Correct. The first and last graphs are both AWL. I do agree, I struggle to find much in common between them. I attribute much of the lack of consistency to my poor technique. I need to be firm enough to confidently and fully touch the CP each time, but also gentle enough not to go past it.

I did notice the spot around L45. It is one of the few places that appear on both graphs. I will pursue that further.

I consider a clockwise motion as "to the right". And a counter-clockwise motion as "to the left". If I had x-ray vision, and could look through the door of the safe as I sit in front of it, I would see the RCP on the right hand side. I should be able to feel the nose touch the RCP if I start in the middle of the drive cam gate, and turn to the left (CCW).

I believe the right contact point is around 4. I believe the left contact point is around 88. This was slightly confusing to me, as I had expected both to be closer towards zero. I also expected them to be closer to each other. The LCP is extremely difficult for me to feel. When I am able to find it, the location is almost always exactly at 88. It does not seem to vary, even in places where the RCP has moved closer towards zero. The RCP is much easier to detect. It is around 4 (+/- 1/8) for many locations. It will drop as low as 3.25. I believe these drops to be a gate (either real or false). Perhaps instead of trying to graph numbers for this CP, I should simply note "about 4" or "noticeably less than 4" for each wheel position. This might relieve me of some of the stress of trying to read exact numbers, and allow me to focus more on precisely and accurately stopping at the CP (neither before nor after it).

I've also felt the CPs on a 6700 series S&G lock, and they seem to be in somewhat different locations. The LCP on my 6700 lock is around 7, and the RCP is around 14. I know the combination for my 6700, and I am able to feel the gap between LCP and RCP become narrower when I dial in one of the three numbers. I will pull the back of this lock to view the lever, nose, and drive cam. This will help me confirm that what I feel agrees with where I believe the parts to be.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean, when you say I may be able to feel a false gate between LCP and RCP. Do you mean the nose of the lever can physically contact a false gate, and that sensation might be felt? It is my understanding the nose only contacts the gate on the drive cam. The fence might drop into a false gate (if that particular wheel happens to be aligned) and I might sense a shift in one or both CPs (caused by the slightly lowered fence). But I would not expect to feel the nose actually touching any part of any false gate directly. Please educate me if I am mistaken.

I'll plow ahead with that L45. And perhaps I'll try to produce a third AWL graph, and see if it agrees with either of my first two. Thanks again for all your guidance.

Attached is the same graph of AWL as shown just a few posts back, along with the corresponding high/low tests for L45.
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femurat

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Post Sat Nov 28, 2020 8:12 am

Re: AMSEC CE1814 with S&G lock

Based on your 2 graphs and your low test, I agree wheel #2 may be L45. This allows you to test wheel #3 around right very quickly. Let's see if something pops out. We'll convert the dial directions later.

Cheers :)
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MartinHewitt

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Post Sat Nov 28, 2020 12:09 pm

Re: AMSEC CE1814 with S&G lock

Your LCP/RCP understanding is fully correct.

Between the LCP and the RCP the nose has no support and the fence is riding on the wheels. Otherwise it could not open. When the largest wheel has a gate in this area it possible to feel the fence dropping there and catching on it.
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt
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Ty_Bower

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Post Sat Nov 28, 2020 2:51 pm

Re: AMSEC CE1814 with S&G lock

MartinHewitt wrote:Between the LCP and the RCP the nose has no support and the fence is riding on the wheels. When the largest wheel has a gate in this area it possible to feel the fence dropping there and catching on it.


Yes, of course. Very interesting. Then again, this would only happen under a limited set of conditions... specifically, the drive cam must be engaged with one or more wheels in the pack. Otherwise there would be no wheel motion, and no opportunity to feel a gate (false or real) move under the fence. I'll try paying closer attention to the area between the CPs when I have all wheels picked up (AWL or AWR). Hmm. No, I cannot feel anything unusual while dialing through the contact zone. It might be worth noting that with all three wheels picked up, the dial feels noticeably heavy. The sense of weight is consistent throughout all 360 degrees of dial rotation; not just through the contact area. I believe this is common for the S&G dial locks. It does make it quite practical to sense as each wheel is picked up.

Onward with L45...
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Ty_Bower

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Post Sat Nov 28, 2020 4:09 pm

Re: AMSEC CE1814 with S&G lock

MartinHewitt wrote:The LCP should be easier to feel...


This is not the case for my lock. It is not possible (?) to feel the left contact point.

For the longest time, I was convinced the LCP was located at 88. I was disturbed that it never seemed to move more than +/- one eigth division away from 88.

Now I believe I may have found the true LCP. I think it is at 93. I only seem to be able to detect it by sound. I can hear the nose roller go *tink* ever so softly when it touches the left edge of the drive cam gate. Unfortunately, it must be absolutely silent in the room to hear it. I'll keep working this area, and perhaps I'll learn to sense it by feel as well. It does seem to shift towards a smaller gap (LCP moves closer to the RCP) when I'm in an area that I suspect contains a gate (real or false).
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MartinHewitt

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Post Sat Nov 28, 2020 4:33 pm

Re: AMSEC CE1814 with S&G lock

Maybe the roller rotates easier one direction than the other. Maybe the LCP is sitting lower due to manufacturing. And there is another should with the LCP. The LCP should move less than the RCP. So if you can feel/hear only one the RCP is better.
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt
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Ty_Bower

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Post Tue Jul 05, 2022 12:49 pm

Re: AMSEC CE1814 with S&G lock

It is open.

11-90-70
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MartinHewitt

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Post Tue Jul 05, 2022 4:04 pm

Re: AMSEC CE1814 with S&G lock

:slainte: Great work! I hope you had a lot of fun!
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt
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Cheesehead

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Post Tue Jul 05, 2022 10:34 pm

Re: AMSEC CE1814 with S&G lock

Fantastic! Somehow I had missed this thread entirely. I’m not familiar with the lock, happy to learn.

Looking back over it, I’m guessing you caught the edge of a gate at 88? Wondering if you used that or how you came to open it.
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femurat

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Post Wed Jul 06, 2022 8:29 am

Re: AMSEC CE1814 with S&G lock

Finally! You did it, congratulations.

Looking back at the graphs you posted, you already found a gate around 10 in the first graph.
I know, it's easy to say so when you know the combination. But it's useful to look back at the graphs and think about your choices and learn.

Cheers :)
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Ty_Bower

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Post Wed Jul 06, 2022 6:14 pm

Re: AMSEC CE1814 with S&G lock

Cheesehead wrote:Fantastic! Somehow I had missed this thread entirely. I’m not familiar with the lock, happy to learn.


The S&G 6630 is not a lock I think I would recommend for ones first manipulation. Surely, the Group 1 and 1R represent an even greater challenge, but this 6630 was more than enough to give me fits.

The action is smooth. I wasn't troubled too much by the false gates, but realize they are there. The contact points are nearly impossible to feel. When you finally do learn to feel them, you realize they are constantly "moving around" due to the eccentric roller. This wreaks havoc on the consistency in your graphs. The eccentric roller is the single most challenging part of this lock.

The shiny nickel finish on the knob makes good reading quite difficult. Print yourself a good vernier scale on sturdy cardstock, and affix it around the dial. There's an SVG generator here:
https://www.lama.univ-savoie.fr/pagesme ... rnier.html

Print lots of empty manipulation charts. Don't be afraid to start over again from scratch on a particular wheel if you believe things aren't going well, but always keep your old charts around. Make diligent notes in the margins (date, direction, etc.) so you can figure out what a particular chart meant long after the fact. Constantly study and re-study the inner workings of the lock, and make sure you are always visualizing (in your mind) which wheel(s) is (are) turning, and in what direction.

Have good lighting, quiet peaceful surroundings, and a comfortable work area. A stethoscope or microphone amplifier/headset might be helpful, although I did not use either. Be well rested, and have lots of patience. If you're getting tired, give up for the day and try again later.
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Ty_Bower

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Post Wed Jul 06, 2022 6:19 pm

Re: AMSEC CE1814 with S&G lock

femurat wrote:Looking back at the graphs you posted, you already found a gate around 10 in the first graph.
I know, it's easy to say so when you know the combination. But it's useful to look back at the graphs and think about your choices and learn.


Yes, keep all your charts and have them labelled. Even the poor traces might offer some hints. I've yet to pull the back of the lock and identify the false gate locations, but I expect they will align with what Martin Hewitt has already reported.
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MartinHewitt

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Post Wed Jul 06, 2022 11:30 pm

Re: AMSEC CE1814 with S&G lock

The 6630s are awful to manipulate, but I love how they feel when used. Unfortunately S&G locks are quite rarely sold here.

So, did you already move your stuff into that safe?

Btw. did you check if 10-90-70 would have opened the safe too?
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt
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