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Friction fence lock variation

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00247

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Familiar Face

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Post Wed Jul 31, 2019 3:52 am

Friction fence lock variation

The junker HHM safe I picked up last week was just for parts, it didn't add to the fleet per se. I really don't need any more safes but the safe gods don't seem to see it that way. The wife drug me to her company picnic last Saturday. While in a discussion with a coworker of the wife, she said to me, "You work on old safes don't you?' "Yeah...?" , I replied. She went on to tell me her father had an old safe that he wanted to get rid of, it was free, he would even load it with his skid steer. FREE??? I'll take a dozen! It turned out to be a Cary safe, just a plain old square one slopped up with grey paint. door open, inside partitions missing, and combination inside.

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After removing the rear door panel, I was pleased to find a friction fence lock. With only the name Cary on the dial I was not sure who made it. I wonder if it was made by Yale as the is a Y stamped on the wheel pack cover and a Y6 and RH cast into the removable cover on the lock. The wheel pack itself is the same as others I have seen.

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With a little more searching I found that the patent date of Jan 1, 1907 has a patent assigned to an employee of Yale & Towne for the vertical moving bolt in the lock. It would seem the lock is a Yale.

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https://patents.google.com/patent/US840269A/en

As I said, this lock has a removable cover which makes for excellent viewing of the inside workings. The friction fence is of the crimped assembly design like in the Yale and Mosler styles. In the locks I have seen the fence throws the bolt horizontally. In this lock the bolt is moved vertically. (hence, the patent) The bolt is made from laminated pieces of brass riveted together. An intricate piece that the fence fits into nicely.

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Here are a couple videos. First shows the action of the friction fence, the vertical bolt, and how it blocks the door bolt action. The second one gives a view of the action going on inside the lock when dialing.





I'm not really sure what will become of this safe. For now it will get shuffled into the "someday" gathering of safes. There are others that are more important to get done than this one. But it was free!
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MartinHewitt

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Post Wed Jul 31, 2019 10:22 am

Re: Friction fence lock variation

It is a Yale Y-6. It was used exclusively on Cary safes. The Y-6 was probably the first friction fence lock, because it is shown in the friction fence patent. I think it is linked in the friction fence lock thread.

PS: https://patents.google.com/patent/US840269A

PPS: The lock is a really great catch!
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

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Post Fri Aug 02, 2019 5:37 pm

Re: Friction fence lock variation

My goodness, what a great find. And FREE :D You lucky son-of-a-bitch, lol.

The Y6 has been on my radar for quite some time now, but I rarely see them reasonably priced. I'm patient though... one of these days I'll eventually find one for the collection and look forward to working it into the rotation of regular spin-sessions :).

So glad you grabbed this one... if for nothing other than the lock! And a 4-wheel to boot! (to my knowledge, most were 3). Grateful for the pics & vids of it. Nice!
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Cheesehead

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Post Sun Apr 17, 2022 2:29 am

Re: Friction fence lock variation

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Haven't worked on combo locks for a few years now; a guy in my area was talking to a lady whose safe I had opened years ago and called me up. Sent me a picture of the lock this afternoon, and since today's the only day until next weekend that I can look at it, went over there a couple of hours later.

Started working on it, realized quickly this wasn't a typical lock. Couldn't feel a contact point, but picked up there was 4 wheels. Loaded this handy forum, searched for Cary, found enough to keep me going for a while (2 hours). Seems to be the same lock as described here; indirect drive feel.

I think I found a gate on wheel 2, 47L. I'm calling it wheel 2, but it's been hard to tag to a wheel, the contact point is just not very forgiving, and I'm rusty.

I haven't worked with friction fence locks before, have a couple questions:
1. Contact point is VERY subtle; I feel something resembling it between 1 and 2 (turning drive wheel right), that's about where it should be on this style? If I'm turning all wheels left, it disappears around 20-35.
2. I've been assuming the opening sequence is RLRLR? Wouldn't mind confirmation on that.
3. I understand this is a friction fence lock, does anyone have an approximate increment for how long it takes for the fence to drop when turning counterclockwise? for example, if I'm turning the last wheel left, stop on 5 and turn the other way to check the CP, will the fence come in contact with the wheel pack before I reach the contact point? Probably wouldn't be asking if the CP was crisper.

Probably wouldn't have so many questions, but this lock feels like a level up from most, and I'm horribly out of practice. And frankly not that experienced to begin with.
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MartinHewitt

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Post Sun Apr 17, 2022 11:49 am

Re: Friction fence lock variation

Cary did use a lot of different locks. Yale Y-6 / M-16 (3-w), S&G 6810 (3-w), Cary C-5 simple direct entry fence lock (3-w), Cary C-3 indirect drive direct entry fence lock (4-w), Yale 062-1/2 (4-w), S&G M6730 (3-w). From appearance I think the most probable is a Yale Y-6, which is LRLR. The 4-wheel 062-1/2 is LRLRL. Did you exclude the possibility, that it is a direct entry fence? The C-3 is probably also making gear sounds.

It takes my Yale 026 about 3 numbers to land the fence. So from 5 to 1 or 2 can be enough to feel the CP, or not.
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt
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Cheesehead

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Post Sun Apr 17, 2022 12:22 pm

Re: Friction fence lock variation

MartinHewitt wrote:Cary did use a lot of different locks. Yale Y-6 / M-16 (3-w), S&G 6810 (3-w), Cary C-5 simple direct entry fence lock (3-w), Cary C-3 indirect drive direct entry fence lock (4-w), Yale 062-1/2 (4-w), S&G M6730 (3-w). From appearance I think the most probable is a Yale Y-6, which is LRLR. The 4-wheel 062-1/2 is LRLRL.


From my quick look through the forum, I thought it looked like a Yale Y-6 as well, but it is a four wheel lock. I suppose it could be a case where the lock is no longer original, the safe was used in a business until something like 20 years ago.

MartinHewitt wrote:Did you exclude the possibility, that it is a direct entry fence? The C-3 is probably also making gear sounds.


Yes, I'm not getting any extra drag, light or medium handle pressure.

MartinHewitt wrote:It takes my Yale 026 about 3 numbers to land the fence. So from 5 to 1 or 2 can be enough to feel the CP, or not.

That's good information to know. I thought that felt true yesterday, but it's hard to make concrete evaluations on this lock.

I see there's a friction fence thread, looks like I should read through that one as well. Thanks for the help!
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Cheesehead

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Post Sun Apr 24, 2022 2:45 am

Re: Friction fence lock variation

So I went back today after one week away. I had rigged up a magnetic mount a mechanical stethoscope, and decided before-hand I'd use that to try to make 100% sure that it was a 4-wheel lock, and also decided to re-check the wheel of the possible gate.

The stethoscope turned out to be worse than useless, not sure why. acted more like earplugs than a hearing aid, even though I had tried it beforehand on a cheap lock. Might be the way the lock is mounted in the door? Either way, gave up on the stethoscope pretty quickly.

Turned my attention back to the lock. After checking the wheels again, I positively tagged the 47L gate to wheel 3. Once I had established that, decided to quickly check wheel 4 with the rest parked, nothing useful. Decided to turn wheels 1 and 2 left, found a possible gate. Decided that instead of checking which wheel it was (1 or 2), I'd run wheel 4 again with the other wheels parked and found another gate. Returned to wheels 1 and 2, tagged that gate to wheel 2, then it was a matter of spinning the last wheel for a gate. Spent 1 and a half hours this session.

Some observations:

I think in the friction fence thread Oldfast mentioned that sometimes it seemed putting pressure on the bolt could produce some extra feedback at the dial. Couldn't produce it consistently, but every now and then that seemed to be true on this lock. Can't pinpoint a mechanical reason though, so maybe it's inconsistent dialing on my part.

Once I found more gates, I was surprised by how much the contact point moved. Lining up the first gate, the contact point was around 1.5, with three gates it shifted to 2.3. finding the first gate proved to be the real challenge, after that it was a matter of not forgetting position in the 4 wheels. That probably took most of my time.

The other time consumer was verifying contact points. Much more delicate than any spring loaded fence I've worked with (other than when I specifically weakened the spring on a Diebold practice lock), reminded me of a some gravity-drop roller fence locks. Seemed to help to jostle the drive wheel in the contact area, then rotate to contact point. Gave the deepest readings.

Sorry no pictures of the contents, not my safe. Owner had no problems with me taking pictures of the safe itself, but I had greasy fingers and really didn't take enough. But seems to be the same as previous, except with an extra wheel.

Thanks for the information Martin, and those who posted in the Friction Fence thread, not certain I would have opened this one without knowledge of the mechanism.

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MartinHewitt

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Post Sun Apr 24, 2022 8:15 am

Re: Friction fence lock variation

Well done! Never seen or read about a Y-6 with four wheels.
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
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