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Gardex GX1 Fire safe....

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MartinHewitt

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Post Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:48 pm

Re: Gardex GX1 Fire safe....

The W2@R93 is about +25 from the highest point, but besides two points in past graphs which were 1/4th under 99:8 everything else is 99:8 or higher. And it is quite a lot at 99:8. The mountain around W2@R70 is hovering above like a mountain tip over the clouds.
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Oldfast

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Post Fri Mar 15, 2019 1:52 am

Re: Gardex GX1 Fire safe....

A close look at your dial has me thinking Center Mfg. - their C-100 lock.
And your graphs support this... it's talking like one. This can actually be
a rather tricky lock. The first one I ever ran into really had me stymied.

The wheels are plastic. The process to make them - stamping/pressing
them out - will often leave a bit of flashing on the outer edge of them.
This is likely what's produced that mountain within your graphs of w2.

Image

The highs usually span somewhere around 6-10 incs wide. The gate
will very often, but not always(!), be directly across from the high,
or in that general vicinity. i.e. approx 50 incs. from the high area.

Image

For example; IF your dialing sequences have been correct,
w2 has a high from roughly 62-72. This suggests its' gate
will lie somewhere between 12 & 22.

However, you've already established a rather clear gate signature
@ 21 and tagged it to w3. This could mean any number of things;
Wheels 3&2 could be set to the same #, or maybe their #'s are just
relatively close to each other. Also possible that you've mis-tagged
21 to w3... and it actually belongs to w2.

At any rate, there's a number of things yet to explore here, and
a number of ways to go about it. But hopefully this info will help
direct your efforts. Btw, great work! Way to stick with it!
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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MartinHewitt

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Post Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:39 am

Re: Gardex GX1 Fire safe....

Thanks, Oldfast!

Matt, if L21 is not on W3, then putting all wheels to L21 and then scan only W3 around right should find the real gate for W3. L21 not being on W3 would explain why 99:8 is the lowest point.
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
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mattinbc

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Post Fri Mar 15, 2019 1:11 pm

Re: Gardex GX1 Fire safe....

Well.

First off thank you to all who have contributed here.
Its a lot of information and takes time for me to process and put into practice.

Im at the point where I am running out of time before I have to tuck the safe back away and wait a while till I can get to it again.
I am not in the habit of giving up on things so this will happen.
I have another week or two left but still, I feel like I have been wrong from the get go.

Gardex on their website says that this lock is a S&G 6730. But Im not sure as to what years that is applicable to. Nor do I know the year of safe I am working with.

First of all,

OLDFAST: Thanks for posting here. I hear you are a wealth of knowledge and im thankful for your help. Although your suggestion of the lock being a Center Mfg C-100 goes against what I thought I already knew. To be honest with ya, When my contact points hit, it sounds like brass inside, but that could also just be the gate. Before I change everything up and assume its a C-100, I will post once more pic of the lock, and try my high low test to make sure 21 is on wheel pack 3.

Funny thing is though 10-22.5 have been some spots for hang ups with the dial. All left to first number, and spining back right, the first time, sometimes the dial catches in the 10-22.5 area. Now if I catch and hook, I can spin the first wheel pack off its initially set number. only by about 5-10 increments before the dial lets go of the HANGUP point. I can get past that spot easy enough every time and just carry on without changing the first wheel position, But your numbers seem to coincide with the HANGUP points I have experienced from the get go.

Martin: Thanks for sticking with me through this one. It must be hard to offer advice and tips when you do not even know if the other party is doing their part correctly. I am trying my best, and Even if we dont get this thing open, I have learned a lot already.

Jaakko: Thanks for posting here. I may try your suggestion after a few confirmations to make sure my first digit is in fact on wheel3. People start asking questions and sometimes I doubt myself and need to re confirm a few things first.

Thanks guys for all your help. Gonna do some spinning here today and I will up date you all when I can.

Cheers,
Matt
:safedial:
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Jaakko Fagerlund

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Post Fri Mar 15, 2019 2:36 pm

Re: Gardex GX1 Fire safe....

MartinHewitt wrote:The W2@R93 is about +25 from the highest point, but besides two points in past graphs which were 1/4th under 99:8 everything else is 99:8 or higher. And it is quite a lot at 99:8. The mountain around W2@R70 is hovering above like a mountain tip over the clouds.

I'm so waiting to see this lock opened, as the 6730 seems to be only a guess at this point.
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MartinHewitt

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Post Fri Mar 15, 2019 2:43 pm

Re: Gardex GX1 Fire safe....

I feel like I have been wrong from the get go.

Sometimes it looks like time has been wasted without any advance, but it is all part of the path to the open safe and a lot is learned even when the effort appears wasted.

Yup. I have to say this indeed looks like a Center Mfg. #100 dial. The Center Mfg. #100 is apparently just a relabeled S&G 6709. So there is not that much difference for someone who just resells stuff. What is the distance of dial center to handle center? Perhaps a bit more than 4 1/2"? (Not sure how accurate my measurement is, so let's say "roughly 4 1/2"".)

I think it makes sense to really do a W1+W2@L21, W3 around R (or if you can mange better a W1+W2@L21, W around L, i.e. 4 times left, then about 2 times right (1. time to move drive cam to W3, 2. time to move W3 to nearly or barely touch W2) and then one turn left to pick up W3 again in the left direction and do a scan there). A scan of W3 doesn't take that much time, a misattribution of the gate would explain the graphs and if there was an error on the Hi/Lo test it might happen again.

So that you do not have to wait for a response to continue dialing: In case you indeed find a new gate for W3, find the proper center. Then do a W1+W2 around right for the area around 21 to see how this gate shifts. Then a Hi/Lo test as an additional way to really locate it to W2. And finally hopefully a scan of W1 around left which opens the safe.
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt
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mattinbc

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Post Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:25 pm

Re: Gardex GX1 Fire safe....

Just to make sure from the start we are doing things right. W3 is in fact 21. That high low confirmed that.

That being said, I really dont know what to do from here.
I'm wondering if the second digit or wheel 2 is R20.

Perhaps I will run the 100 combos as L_, R20, L21.

Thanks for the patience all around guys.
You have suggested many things to try. I will try and catch up.

Matt
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mattinbc

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Post Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:34 pm

Re: Gardex GX1 Fire safe....

MartinHewitt wrote:
I feel like I have been wrong from the get go.

Sometimes it looks like time has been wasted without any advance, but it is all part of the path to the open safe and a lot is learned even when the effort appears wasted.

Yup. I have to say this indeed looks like a Center Mfg. #100 dial. The Center Mfg. #100 is apparently just a relabeled S&G 6709. So there is not that much difference for someone who just resells stuff. What is the distance of dial center to handle center? Perhaps a bit more than 4 1/2"? (Not sure how accurate my measurement is, so let's say "roughly 4 1/2"".)

I think it makes sense to really do a W1+W2@L21, W3 around R (or if you can mange better a W1+W2@L21, W around L, i.e. 4 times left, then about 2 times right (1. time to move drive cam to W3, 2. time to move W3 to nearly or barely touch W2) and then one turn left to pick up W3 again in the left direction and do a scan there). A scan of W3 doesn't take that much time, a misattribution of the gate would explain the graphs and if there was an error on the Hi/Lo test it might happen again.

So that you do not have to wait for a response to continue dialing: In case you indeed find a new gate for W3, find the proper center. Then do a W1+W2 around right for the area around 21 to see how this gate shifts. Then a Hi/Lo test as an additional way to really locate it to W2. And finally hopefully a scan of W1 around left which opens the safe.


The distance in inches from the center of the dial, to the center of the handle is just over 3 1/2" inches.
Not sure what that is gonna tell you. Perhaps lock body size confirming its a C100?
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Cheesehead

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Post Fri Mar 15, 2019 5:23 pm

Re: Gardex GX1 Fire safe....

MartinHewitt wrote:So that you do not have to wait for a response to continue dialing: In case you indeed find a new gate for W3, find the proper center. Then do a W1+W2 around right for the area around 21 to see how this gate shifts. Then a Hi/Lo test as an additional way to really locate it to W2. And finally hopefully a scan of W1 around left which opens the safe.


I've certainly wasted time in the past trying to find new gates when I haven't found a proper center; since this lock is being so stubborn I think Martin is on the right track here. I would guess closer to 22 from the graph.
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MartinHewitt

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Post Fri Mar 15, 2019 5:39 pm

Re: Gardex GX1 Fire safe....

The new Hi/Lo indeed points again very strongly to W3@L21. You might still have a lock at some data points (every 10 or 20 numbers) of W3 with W1+W2@L21. Or as Cheesehead suggested anything with 22 instead of 21.

3 1/2" is rather short for a LH R6709. A VU R6730 would work.
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt
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mattinbc

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Post Fri Mar 15, 2019 7:13 pm

Re: Gardex GX1 Fire safe....

Ok guys, I am officially confused now.

How do I find "Proper center"? Is that the proper center of the first gate?
If I did a High Low test with @L22 would that do the trick?

Sorry guys, just brand new at this and its a lot of info all at once. Kinda getting it a bit mixed up.

Also wanna try and run the combos out with wheel 2 @R45 as its 25 numbers south of my mountain at 70. As Jaakko suggested.

High low with L22 first.

Ok. So the high/low test with W3 @L22 yeilded the same results as the high low test @L21.

And for the record Martin, All the wheel packs feel good and pick up at the same point every time.
You gain about 0.5 of an increment every time you go around the opposite direction. so if wheel 1 was set at L5, once around right would stop at 4.5, and twice around at 4. Hope that makes sense. Things feel as they should for the most part.
I have not wore it out yet. but I will be thinking about changing it once we open it.

thanks.
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Cheesehead

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Post Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:20 pm

Re: Gardex GX1 Fire safe....

mattinbc wrote:Ok guys, I am officially confused now.

How do I find "Proper center"? Is that the proper center of the first gate?
If I did a High Low test with @L22 would that do the trick?

Sorry guys, just brand new at this and its a lot of info all at once. Kinda getting it a bit mixed up.

Also wanna try and run the combos out with wheel 2 @R45 as its 25 numbers south of my mountain at 70. As Jaakko suggested.

High low with L22 first.

Ok. So the high/low test with W3 @L22 yeilded the same results as the high low test @L21.

And for the record Martin, All the wheel packs feel good and pick up at the same point every time.
You gain about 0.5 of an increment every time you go around the opposite direction. so if wheel 1 was set at L5, once around right would stop at 4.5, and twice around at 4. Hope that makes sense. Things feel as they should for the most part.
I have not wore it out yet. but I will be thinking about changing it once we open it.

thanks.


Sorry, this might be a bit pedantic, just trying to be clear this time.

Let's say for a moment that when you dial a combination on this lock that a "correct" number can be +-1 increment and still allow the lock to open. This is called tolerance.

So when you are working to find the combination and find a gate on a wheel, it's worth your time to find exactly where the center of that +-1 is, because it means that if you mess up a bit when you park the wheel on a gate it still drops in.

In your case, that means that if the true number for wheel 3 is 22 and you've been managing to get the fence to drop in at 21, it's because you've just barely fit into the tolerance of +-1. You might not fall within tolerance every time then, causing you to miss general lows or gates. Perhaps this is why your graphs look so flat when working the other two wheels, with a graph as hilly as your all-wheels graph, I'd expect more than one wheel to be oblong.

Because I'm lazy, and it's wheel 3, I would park wheels 1 and 2 somewhere away from your mountain around 70, so say park them around 92, and move wheel 3 in half increments, or even quarter increments if I get precise, from 20 to 23 to see exactly where the edges of the gate are.

Depending how comfortable you are with reading the graph, would you try reading to the closest 8th (or 10th if it's easier to visualize) of an increment? I always get a bit paranoid that I'll miss something if I don't go the extra mile with precision. I'm far from the most talented spinner on this forum but I'll put in the work for precision.

Sorry I don't have any clever tricks to try. Good luck!
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MartinHewitt

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Post Sat Mar 16, 2019 12:32 am

Re: Gardex GX1 Fire safe....

Matt, as you can feel all wheels the problem is very likely on W3. Either the gate on W3 is somewhere else, or it is just a tiny bit of.

Normally 1/4th of a number precision of the contact point is enough. Although 1/8th (or 1/10th, but I find 1/8th easier so see) can be an improvement in some cases. More than that is not worthwhile with such a lock.

Normally it is enough to make a reading every 2.5 numbers, but some people prefer every 2 numbers. To determine the center of a gate I normally do a resolution of 1.25 numbers. Every 1 or 1/2 numbers could be beneficial. I don't think smaller steps than this helps. The gate width is probably about 1.5 numbers (+/- 0.75), perhaps a bit more. With a resolution of 1 or 1.25 there is one point inside the gate. With 1/2 number there are 2 to 3 points inside the gate. With 1/4 number there are 6 to 7 points inside the gate. Even so the gate width is only 1.5 numbers the actual gate indication is wider. In your case around 6 numbers. This is because a gate is a flattening of the wheel allowing the fence to sit lower and lower until it can fall completely into the gate. A gate width of 1.5 means if the gate is exactly at 22 neither 21 nor 23 will open the lock.

Cheesehead's recommendations to locate the real center are a good idea.
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt
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