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Group 1 Yale??

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L4R3L2

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Post Sun Feb 24, 2019 5:41 am

Group 1 Yale??

So, I bought this little lock box relatively cheap since the combination was unknown, thinking I might have a nice strong box and an OC5 to manipulate.

When it arrived, I went straight to working the lock. How many wheels, pickup differences, and contact point(s). The first thing I noticed was clicking/ratcheting, much more so than just gears meshing on an indirect drive dial. In fact, there are 100 clicks all the way around one spin of the dial when turned slowly and carefully counted. What the heck?! A lock just like in the movies? I couldn't find any definite contact point, and I wasn't even really sure the number of wheels. This may not be do-able after all!

Since the top and bottom of the box have coin slots, and the rear corners have mounting holes, I was bale to spy inside with illumination, and this is what I saw.....
A rear cover having a raised disc offset toward a corner.
Yale Made in USA
Warning! Turn dial to 50 before removing cover.
UL Inspected Combination Lock Group 1 No.197044

Group 1! I didn't know of any Yale Group 1s, and this lock is in none of my references. This little box has government written all over it (figure of speech). Heavy duty construction. Hints of zinc oxide or zinc chromate primer under the Navy gray paint. And, now, a Group 1 lock.

What do I have here? What is this lock? Is it rare? I plan to drill a couple holes in the back to work the cover off and manipulate the wheels to an opening...when I can get around to doing a proper job of it.

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Last edited by L4R3L2 on Sun Feb 24, 2019 9:37 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Riyame

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Post Sun Feb 24, 2019 8:57 am

Re: Group 1 Yale??

Whoah, please edit your post, those images are HUGE. I edited them into links instead of images for the time being.

If you go to your images page, click on the image you want, it will pop up a window. At the bottom you can select an option called "Huge Thumbnail"

Then copy the link from the Linked BBCode and paste it where you want the image. This will shrink your image a lot and allow people to click on it to see the full sized version.

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PhoneMan: I always knew I'd say something stupid and it would be someone's sig
macgng: i am an equal opportunity pervert
macgng: aww fuck thats goin in someone sig :-(

If life gives you melons, you might be dyslexic.
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MartinHewitt

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Post Sun Feb 24, 2019 10:11 am

Re: Group 1 Yale??

How cute! The cat and the safe.

Looks to me like a B30/B31/B40/B41. They are Group 1 and 1R.

PS: I think B3x is 3-wheel, B4x is 4-wheel. Bx0 is Group 1R and Bx1 is Group 1.
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt
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jharveee

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Post Sun Feb 24, 2019 6:10 pm

Re: Group 1 Yale??

How Neat! A Group 1, Government High Security coin bank. All the kids will be wanting one, including me! Looking forward to seeing photos of the insides.
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L4R3L2

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Post Mon Feb 25, 2019 6:06 am

Re: Group 1 Yale??

MartinHewitt wrote:
Looks to me like a B30/B31/B40/B41. They are Group 1 and 1R.

PS: I think B3x is 3-wheel, B4x is 4-wheel. Bx0 is Group 1R and Bx1 is Group 1.


Thank you, Martin. I'm not finding anything on these locks. It may be a while until I can devote good time to opening this, but I'll share the results of the event when I do.
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MartinHewitt

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Post Mon Feb 25, 2019 8:59 am

Re: Group 1 Yale??

It is a friction fence lock where an additional arm keeps the fence away from the wheel pack until a second, smaller gate is aligned at the proper position. This might function as a relocker. The clicking comes from a pair of springs at the drive cam.
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt
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L4R3L2

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Post Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:35 am

Re: Group 1 Yale??

MartinHewitt wrote:It is a friction fence lock where an additional arm keeps the fence away from the wheel pack until a second, smaller gate is aligned at the proper position. This might function as a relocker. The clicking comes from a pair of springs at the drive cam.


Interesting. Thank you. I could feel two different feelings on the clicks, alternating- must be the two springs and 50 notches.
Is this something I should be able to work the wheels with the back cover off? I imagine the extra, small gate may be at 50.
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MartinHewitt

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Post Tue Feb 26, 2019 9:06 am

Re: Group 1 Yale??

With the back cover off there are no wheels. So they don't need to be worked. But this additional arm might need to be moved if it works as a relocker. Or maybe there is another think operating as a relocker which I haven't recognized. I guess there should be a patent for this lock.
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt
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MartinHewitt

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Post Tue Feb 26, 2019 9:06 pm

Re: Group 1 Yale??

The same mechanism is in the Yale / Remington Rand 073. Perhaps you find something about this lock.

I searched for a matching Yale patent, but could not find any.
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

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Post Sat Mar 02, 2019 5:27 am

Re: Group 1 Yale??

Hey Terry. Nice to see you're still after new targets :)

Funny, I actually had my eye on that too, but didn't pull the trigger.

I too figured OC-5 at a glance. What a nice surprise!
Sorry I'm not much help to you on this one...
but hope to see some gut-shots eventually!
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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L4R3L2

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Post Sat Mar 09, 2019 6:01 am

Re: Group 1 Yale??

I got around to opening it, finally. I wanted to drill a single 3/16" hole directly behind the lock to reach a screwdriver in, but ended up drilling it to 1/4" in order to get the angles I needed. I figure that was better than drilling multiple holes.

I got the back of the lock off, along with its wheels, exposing the drive wheel and fence. I was easily able to turn the drive wheel around to pull the fence with the gate, but it took some time before I researched my books and found out where the relocker was that needed to be pushed.

Here's the back of the box with the drill hole. The four corner holes were for mounting, and came in handy to get some light inside the box.
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Inside the box. Note the two welded up spots. Apparently, someone had to do this before. Also notice the treasure that I found inside.
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The cover and inside of the lock. I'm pointing at the relocker detent with my screwdriver.
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The manipulation-proofing consists of a lever that keeps the fence away from the wheels, and a clicker that masks any feel or visual reference of contact point positions. I still have to study the mechanics of the lever and catch. It seems to be straight forward, but I'll have to get to a detailed analysis later on.
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Here, you can see how worn the drive pin is. There's nothing left but a point. Eventually I plan to press a new brass pin in its place.
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Pure GI stuff here. The inside was oily and smelled strongly of cosmoline. It may have come out of a mothballed ship.
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MartinHewitt

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Post Sat Mar 09, 2019 10:35 am

Re: Group 1 Yale??

Good work and thanks for the photos!
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

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Post Sun Mar 10, 2019 1:12 am

Re: Group 1 Yale??

Oh wow. Yes, thanks for all the photos. Very interesting.

Particularly the underside of the drive cam.
The rippled ring coupled with the forked prongs
to create the ticks/clicks. This is the first clear
view I've seen of this. Neat.

I'm glad you ended up getting this instead of me.
It probably would've just sat in my lockroom for
a long time before I ever did anything with it. lol
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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jharveee

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Post Sun Mar 10, 2019 11:51 am

Re: Group 1 Yale??

So, what happens if one fails to heed the " WARNING! Turn the Dial to 50 Before Removing Cover"?
Are there two gates on each wheel? One for the lever that retracts the bolt and the other for the fence "Hold Back device". ( for lack of proper name)?
Adding the center mounting hole was a clever solution. Some of the older pennies can be worth a lot of money.
Thanks for the photos of yet another amazing lock.

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