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PROTECALL SAFE

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AL usher69

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Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2016 1:03 am

Location: New York

Post Mon Feb 04, 2019 4:48 pm

PROTECALL SAFE

i have a protecall safe with the combination lock the same. ive tried AWL, AWR, i have also parked wheels 1 & 2 with wheel 3 right and left. I have manipulated 3 safes all group 2 and had always felt enough to to get two numbers and trail by error the 3rd. I dont know if this is a group 2 lock its fire rated c as you see in pictures. i have the drill points as there is a hole but i stopped cause there is no reward by drilling off the corner of the locking cam. If anyone has information on the lock it seems pretty hard compared to sg 6750 and a lagard 3330. I really hate the idea to drill it further thanks for reading this and any help would be helpful...
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MartinHewitt

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Post Mon Feb 04, 2019 11:24 pm

Re: PROTECALL SAFE

So you can feel left and right CP and everything feels fine?

Some locks can be quite tricky because the gates are quite low and are covered by other wheels. My strategy is mostly not to find the gate, but just to optimize the lever position. Every little bit the lever sits lower is an advantage. For this I search for a low for all wheels by either doing e.g. an AWR or try a few different combinations. Then I optimize each wheel separately one after the other, e.g. W3, W2, W1, W3, W3, W1, ... . In this process it is the best not to switch rotation direction because some locks have huge differences there.
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt
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AL usher69

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Posts: 32

Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2016 1:03 am

Location: New York

Post Tue Feb 05, 2019 1:19 am

Re: PROTECALL SAFE

Thanks and i will give this a shot. I have tried different ways but what i will do is go for the information you gave me. Thank you
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AL usher69

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Posts: 32

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Location: New York

Post Tue Feb 05, 2019 1:24 am

Re: PROTECALL SAFE

I also have CPJournal software its really nic not to write down everything and it saves all my safe information.
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Squelchtone

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Posts: 301

Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 7:16 pm

Location: Springfield MA USA

Post Tue Feb 05, 2019 5:27 am

Re: PROTECALL SAFE

Nice safe!

I believe your safe is from around 1948-1950 and is from the time where Protectall safes stopped having Yale 0700 locks and got Mosler locks installed when Mosler acquired Protectall.

I just looked at an old Mosler lock and I have the same dial and dial ring, and the font of the numbers is spot on.

At first I thought you had the S-201 lock mounted VD, but your Indian logo background is black not red, so a book I have says you have the Mosler 302 lock mounted RH (as looking from inside the safe at the lock), which means that drill point is not gonna hit anything. You could drill the left side of the door and punch the bolt in, but I dont know how thick your door is on that model, and you mentioned you don't really want to drill either.

retracting your safe lock's bolt directly pulls on the door bolt(s) I'm gonna assume you have 1 active locking bolt in that door directly left of the dial.


(I have a 1947 Protectall safe with the Yale dial, and a big handle that swings the bolt work open, I have 2 active bolts about a 1/3 and 2/3rd's of the way down on the left side of the door.)

I painted my safe green and painted some pin stripes as well.
Image

Lucky for you, the Mosler 302 lock can be manipulated (yours is not the Group 1 MR 302 manipulation resistant "click click" version), so read the threads here and get your graph paper out. or try 50-25-50, the factory combination.

Squelchtone
Last edited by Squelchtone on Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:47 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Squelchtone

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Posts: 301

Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 7:16 pm

Location: Springfield MA USA

Post Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:11 am

Re: PROTECALL SAFE

I found a photo of your model open, and you can see it has 1 static bolt on the hinge side, and then there is 1 active bolt which is directly connected to the lock's bolt.

Image

You can extrapolate how deep the bolt is, drill a 1/4 inch hole on the left side of the safe, and as someone pulls on the grab handle, insert a punch into the hole you drilled, give it a good spack or two with a baby sledge hammer and the bolt should retract enough to pull the door open.

Squelchtone
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AL usher69

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Posts: 32

Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2016 1:03 am

Location: New York

Post Tue Feb 05, 2019 1:01 pm

Re: PROTECALL SAFE

thanks i really needed to know i could manipulate it. i tried 50 25 50 50 20 50 no good again thank you so much for the info. Ill keep track of all my moves and put them on here telling how i manipulated this safe.....
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AL usher69

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Posts: 32

Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2016 1:03 am

Location: New York

Post Tue Feb 05, 2019 5:27 pm

Re: PROTECALL SAFE

After my awl i got 62.5 and then i parked that wheel at 62.5 i did wr i got 32.5 so my question is how do i park w3 @ 62.5 then w2 @ 32.5 so i can then go wl to find the low point or number on w1. i hope this makes since. i would skip parking w1 and w3 in the contact area to check w2 if i can get it explain to me ive got this no matter how much i read i have trouble comprehanding what ive read its my adhd i think.i have all the pdf on manipulation safes.. please help explain if you can thank you so much
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Squelchtone

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Posts: 301

Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 7:16 pm

Location: Springfield MA USA

Post Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:29 pm

Re: PROTECALL SAFE

AL usher69 wrote:After my awl i got 62.5 and then i parked that wheel at 62.5 i did wr i got 32.5 so my question is how do i park w3 @ 62.5 then w2 @ 32.5 so i can then go wl to find the low point or number on w1. i hope this makes since. i would skip parking w1 and w3 in the contact area to check w2 if i can get it explain to me ive got this no matter how much i read i have trouble comprehanding what ive read its my adhd i think.i have all the pdf on manipulation safes.. please help explain if you can thank you so much



I am not sure your level of manipulation experience, but I want to check and see if you have already done the following:

1. do you know the dialing order of your lock? as in dial 4 times left to 1st number, dial 3 times right to 2nd number, 2 times left to 3rd number, 1 times, slowly rIght until it drops in and retratcts the bolt around 0 and comes to complete stop?
2. am I understanding that graphing AWL, you believe the strongest indication of a true gate is at 62.5 ? Have you dialed 55 to 65 in one number increments to magnify your reading and get a better gate shaped graph?
I dont know what "I did wr I got 32.5" means, can you expand on what "wr" is (wheels right?) or do you mean you also did AWR and found what you believe is a true gate at 32.5? have you amplified that gate by dialing 25 to 35 and going back to the contact area to measure for differences?
3. Have you done high low tests to make sure 62.5 and 32.5 are on the wheels you think they are on? to do what you are asking you will have to do an exhaustive search of dialing a test number, then dialing 32.5 and then 62.5 and then turning to the drop in. didnt work? pick up all wheels left, dial next 1st combination number in line, then dial wheel 2 to 62.5, then dial wheel 3 to 32.5 and then dial to drop on. At least I believe this is what you are asking.

Oldfast probably has some good dialing shortcuts so you don't have to redial everything over by picking up AWL each time you try the next possible Wheel 1 number.

Squelchtone
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AL usher69

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Posts: 32

Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2016 1:03 am

Location: New York

Post Tue Feb 05, 2019 7:01 pm

Re: PROTECALL SAFE

contact points r94 and l5 this is what i did r@52 l@62.5 l@625 94 and 4 next l@62.5 r@52 l@62.5 94 2.5 last l@62.5 l@ 62.5 r@ 52 97 3.5 does this sound right ok how do i find the contact point. thats what im missing. im doing the high test and then both low and high for 32.5. i really appriate all the help i can get. ive been picking locks for apts. for years and just started the safes im 60 and retired but i would love to go back to school for safe and vault tect.
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AL usher69

Familiar Face

Posts: 32

Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2016 1:03 am

Location: New York

Post Tue Feb 05, 2019 7:24 pm

Re: PROTECALL SAFE

r@72.5 l@62.5 l@62.5 l95.5 r2.5 contact point ? l@62.5 r@72.5 l@62.5 l96.5 r4 contact point ? l@62.5 l@62.5 r@72.5 l96 r4 ??
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MartinHewitt

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Location: Germany

Post Tue Feb 05, 2019 9:28 pm

Re: PROTECALL SAFE

I think you lack some understanding. You really should read a bit more about manipulation.
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt
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Squelchtone

Active Member

Posts: 301

Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 7:16 pm

Location: Springfield MA USA

Post Tue Feb 05, 2019 9:30 pm

Re: PROTECALL SAFE

AL usher69 wrote:contact points r94 and l5 this is what i did r@52 l@62.5 l@625 94 and 4 next l@62.5 r@52 l@62.5 94 2.5 last l@62.5 l@ 62.5 r@ 52 97 3.5 does this sound right ok how do i find the contact point. thats what im missing. im doing the high test and then both low and high for 32.5. i really appriate all the help i can get. ive been picking locks for apts. for years and just started the safes im 60 and retired but i would love to go back to school for safe and vault tect.


I dont want to offend you, but it doesn't sound quite like you got the right instructions on how to manipulate. I wish I was good at explaining it, and maybe there is a PDF file or post or youtube video explaining it better, but the whole idea isn't just to keep finding contact points, we already know where they are, what we are testing for is if when we move and park all the wheels to a certain number, we then turn the dial back to the contact points and measure them at that moment in time to see what they are. for most of the dial from 99 down to 1, your contact point measurements will probably be the same, lets say they'll always read RCP 94, and LCP 5, but then suddenly, you'll be move the dial to test a new number along the dial, let's say you park all the wheels on 50, then you turn the dial back to the contact points, and feel for when the nose hits the contact points and you may notice a very slight change of RCP being 94.4 and the LCP being 4.6 a change that big would indicate something interesting, possibly a gate on one of the 3 wheels at 50. now you would take your wheels and do hi-lo tests and dial 50-25-25, 25-50-25, and 25-25-50 and when you dial each of these combinations, return back to the contact points and measure where you feel them. one of them will be the 94.4 and 4.6 and two of them will be 94 and 5, the 94.4 and 4.6 will be the wheel that the gate is on. on an S&G 6730 wheel 3 will usually be the 1st to show it's gate position.

I hope this makes sense and perhaps you are already doing all this, but are not as wordy as my long replies. I welcome any corrections if I got anything backwards, I am still learning the art myself and am by no means an expert.

Squelchtone
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AL usher69

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Posts: 32

Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2016 1:03 am

Location: New York

Post Tue Feb 05, 2019 9:36 pm

Re: PROTECALL SAFE

ive read safecracking for everyone, safemans guide volume1, safecracking for computer scientist do you have a favorite that you could suggest.
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AL usher69

Familiar Face

Posts: 32

Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2016 1:03 am

Location: New York

Post Tue Feb 05, 2019 9:49 pm

Re: PROTECALL SAFE

im not looking for more contact points im looking for the answer to after i do the high low test how do you come up with the right answer. that is what i have been doing ill start with awl and then find a low point then i will do the high and low my problem besides many is ill get LCP94 AND RCP 2.5 how do i get the contact point that tells me which wheel im not good at explaining i ran a body guard service for years and and never had to explain it was all about reaction.. i have read alot of pdf on manipulating. im just a hands on person not book smart at all. i do thank you two guys for taking time to explain. If i had money i would pay for the help.
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