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Friction-Fence Locks

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MartinHewitt

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Post Sun Aug 04, 2019 12:37 pm

Re: Friction-Fence Locks

That is my Yale OC-5. What is the purpose of the plate with the two holes?
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MartinHewitt

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Post Sun Aug 04, 2019 12:40 pm

Re: Friction-Fence Locks

And finally the Saragent & Greenleaf C87. It looks quite different from the others, but it really is also a friction fence. Turning right is a CP, turning left none. I believe it is a right version (not really sure). 4xL to (at the moment) 83, 3xR to 20, 2xL to 5, R to stop.

(Edit: Wrong CP directions fixed. Now hopefully finally.)
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Last edited by MartinHewitt on Thu Aug 08, 2019 8:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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MartinHewitt

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Post Sun Aug 04, 2019 12:40 pm

Re: Friction-Fence Locks

Oldfast, now you can point out all the stuff I have missed.
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Oldfast

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Post Tue Aug 06, 2019 4:11 am

Re: Friction-Fence Locks

Wow! You've gotten your hands on some real gems here Martin! Beautiful locks.

MartinHewitt wrote:That is my Yale OC-5. What is the purpose of the plate with the two holes?

Maybe in its' previous home there was a time lock mounted above it? Maybe Riy would know better.

MartinHewitt wrote:Can I remove the pipe and its base plate after removing the drive and spindle?

Based on the few I've worked with, I'd say probably not. Also, I'm not sure the exact model of this Mosler... but I can tell you I'm jealous. lol

re: Mounting this lock. If you're concerned there's not enough holding it, sure, you could do something more. But really, only the one protrusion is meant to be sunk into the backing. A partial-depth hole drilled with the appropriate size drill bit will make a nice snug cavity for it. The perfect placement of this hole will be the difficult part.

Mounting screw(s); it's kinda surprising there's only one hole. There's usually at least two, opposite corners from each other. But remember, the other thing that will help hold this all together is the lock tube. The dial ring will go on the end of it followed by the tube nut (fairly tight). This will sorta 'sandwich' the mount between the lock and dial ring.

But again, if this isn't enough to ease your mind... do something a little more like you were talking about.


And the last one (S&G): VERY COOL! I have one here (on loan) that is nearly identical... except the lever in it is spring-loaded. This one you have I'm not familiar with, but I think I can see how it would work on friction only when turning left. Very interesting. Very.

p.s. Wait: Final turn is left... but you mention CP is only felt when turning right? Or is this a typo?
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MartinHewitt

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Post Tue Aug 06, 2019 11:03 am

Re: Friction-Fence Locks

Oldfast wrote:
MartinHewitt wrote:That is my Yale OC-5. What is the purpose of the plate with the two holes?

Maybe in its' previous home there was a time lock mounted above it? Maybe Riy would know better.

Or a switch to detect an opening?

Oldfast wrote:
MartinHewitt wrote:Can I remove the pipe and its base plate after removing the drive and spindle?

Based on the few I've worked with, I'd say probably not. Also, I'm not sure the exact model of this Mosler...

It can be removed. There are two screws on the inside.

From the blue HPC it looks like a 5 because of the form of the curb and its two mounting screws. On one of the drawings there is the 5-H with one mounting screw and on another it is the plain 5. Dave McOmie has listed your lock on the first page as a 5-H. The inconsistency with the mounting screws in the HPC naming does not make this all very trustworthy. So you and Dave McOmie might be right and mine is not a 5. Or it is just a newer version or a de luxe model of the 5.

Oldfast wrote:but I can tell you I'm jealous. lol

Great! :)

Oldfast wrote:re: Mounting this lock. If you're concerned there's not enough holding it, sure, you could do something more. But really, only the one protrusion is meant to be sunk into the backing. A partial-depth hole drilled with the appropriate size drill bit will make a nice snug cavity for it. The perfect placement of this hole will be the difficult part.

Mounting screw(s); it's kinda surprising there's only one hole. There's usually at least two, opposite corners from each other. But remember, the other thing that will help hold this all together is the lock tube. The dial ring will go on the end of it followed by the tube nut (fairly tight). This will sorta 'sandwich' the mount between the lock and dial ring.

The best way is probably to use the tube. One hole for the screw, one for the pin next to it, the big one for the tube and on the dial side an enlargement for the nut as the nut has to stay below the surface. The thickness of the board must be relatively precise.

The behavior of the mesh change got a bit better after cleaning the wheels.

Oldfast wrote:And the last one (S&G): VERY COOL! I have one here (on loan) that is nearly identical... except the lever in it is spring-loaded. This one you have I'm not familiar with, but I think I can see how it would work on friction only when turning left. Very interesting. Very.

The friction is directly happening at the drive cam. The arm going to the fence is squeezed with a C clip to the cam. I think there is a patent for this lock.

I have the CP direction fixed. Thanks for pointing out.
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00247

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Post Tue Aug 06, 2019 11:47 am

Re: Friction-Fence Locks

MartinHewitt wrote:Can I remove the pipe and its base plate after removing the drive and spindle?


Edit: I see you posted as I was creating my post and now have it apart.

Your lock used the spindle tube as part of the lock mounting. It should be removable. The locks on the double door Mosler screw door safe are similar. The spindle tube acts as part of the lock mount along with two bolts. The nut also holds the dial ring in place. Note how the lock bolt slides through a separate mount on this lock.

100_5099.JPG


100_5102.JPG


The lock on the single screw door is a little different but the spindle mount is also removable. It acts as the support for the drive cam, a spacer/support for the lock bolt extension, and the nut holds the dial ring in place. While it technically also acts as part of the mounting system, this lock has 4 mounting bolts that do the brunt of the job.

IMG_2975.JPG


IMG_2973.JPG


IMG_2976.JPG


100_5490.JPG


Some of these locks had very long spindle tubes for fire safes with a thick door. There are a lot of variations of these locks.
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MartinHewitt

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Post Tue Aug 06, 2019 12:23 pm

Re: Friction-Fence Locks

Thanks 00247. There are indeed so many variations. I guess that is the blessing of a certification-free world. Nobody said at that time "but then we need to recertify".

My dial ring is different from yours as it has three holes for screw mounting and no noses for the tube, but these noses could have been removed later on. My lock also doesn't have a serial anywhere. The nut indeed quite comfortably fits between dial and dial ring and perhaps the dial should be guided by the nut. So the mounting plate's thickness has to fit well. I do wonder, why the mounting hole in the lock is threaded. Are your lock's too? Do you know the threading data?
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Oldfast

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Post Tue Aug 06, 2019 4:07 pm

Re: Friction-Fence Locks

.

The photos and info is starting to pile up here.

Great stuff guys! I'm learning some new things.
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MartinHewitt

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Post Tue Aug 06, 2019 8:08 pm

Re: Friction-Fence Locks

Oldfast wrote:The photos and info is starting to pile up here.
Great stuff guys! I'm learning some new things.

It is all your fault! You are fully responsible for this!
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MartinHewitt

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Post Tue Aug 06, 2019 8:27 pm

Re: Friction-Fence Locks

00247, your two Moslers are of different size. Which one has the standard vault lock size (like the modern 6400/6500 series, older S&G 6805/6810, big Kromer locks, Chubb 7L64)?

Regarding the plate on the OC-5: The bigger threaded hole leads just to the wheel pack. I don't see any possible use for this other perhaps to mount something on the lock. The smaller hole is not threaded and directly above the bolt. When the bolt is fully retracted there is a space, because the piece is there falling off. In all other bolt positions there is no space. So there could have been a switch to detect a lock opening, but I don't see any wear on the bolt there.

For the Mosler I need a 15mm board. That should be doable.
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Riyame

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Post Thu Aug 08, 2019 3:53 pm

Re: Friction-Fence Locks

MartinHewitt wrote:That is my Yale OC-5. What is the purpose of the plate with the two holes?


Possibly an electric alarm of some type? Open vs closed signal.
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MartinHewitt

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Post Thu Aug 08, 2019 4:21 pm

Re: Friction-Fence Locks

That is a working possibility.
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Post Thu Aug 08, 2019 6:43 pm

Re: Friction-Fence Locks

MartinHewitt wrote:That is my Mosler 5-H? 6-H? Who knows?


I have a couple 5-H locks and they have some specific features which are different than yours so I do not believe yours is a 5-H.

mine are both black ceramic coating, not the plated in brass/gold, no mounting holes, only the tube nut kept the lock on the safe door, only 1 set screw on the curb, and the curb hub where the wheels are stacked looks much differently than mine.

the logo on the coin attached to your dial is also more like the 1920's/1930's Mosler logo, vs the Mosler logo on the Yale made 5-H locks. The curb also has a Mosler logo on mine, and the back hole where the curb seats into has this interesting cut out on yours, that I have not seen on 5-H locks before.

I have a Mosler catalog around here somewhere showing other similar models, I will have to dig around to find out which model that is.

The tube can be removed as others have mentioned already.

hope this helps,
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MartinHewitt

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Post Thu Aug 08, 2019 7:45 pm

Re: Friction-Fence Locks

In the blue HPC book are two type of Mosler locks:
1) The lock as shown here by Oldfast in the first posting. It has a well rounded case and the curb is not held none or one screw.
2) The lock like mine. Less rounded case and curb held by two screws.
How the lock is mounted in the safe (number of screws) determines the letter(s) after the number. 5, 5-H, 5-BP.
I would trust this book that the letters indicate the mounting options, everything else might be true or not. So it would be great if you could look into your catalog. Maybe the two types are just a newer and an older model. I didn't know Yale made locks for Mosler.
The tube is already halve cleaned. It was the most dirty part of that lock.
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Post Thu Aug 08, 2019 9:18 pm

Re: Friction-Fence Locks

Ok, fixed now the directions of the C87 above hopefully finally. It opens right, but change mark is right and I think the dial ring fits only with lock LH. So is it a RH lock, which was just installed LH, or is it a LH lock which was installed LH, or is there just one type of lock or ... ?
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