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Safe Chronicles, Part II - Beyond the Lockroom

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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

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Post Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:44 am

Re: Safe Chronicles, Part II - Beyond the Lockroom

MartinHewitt wrote:...Btw. a safe man has asked me if he may forward to me jobs where his trip would be to expensive. So there is a chance, that there will come more from me.

Well that's exciting news!

MartinHewitt wrote:I never made a lever lock key from scratch. I have here an old cash box in wooden style painting with a three lever lock where I have to make a key for. Waiting for some sheet steel and then will try to make a really nice key for it. I am certain that I will get a proper key made for that, but I do not trust me making a proper key with hand tools for an 8 or 11 lever lock.

Hope to see some photos when it's all said and done.
As to the 8-11 lever lock keys - they look pretty complex.
I don't think I would wanna file out one of those either. lol

MartinHewitt wrote:Is the drive cam of the Gary on the dial side? Is there a description how those round door floor safes work?

Drive cam is furthest from the dial, if that's what you're wondering?
ie. The wheel pack sets between the dial and drive cam.
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

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Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2011 3:16 pm

Location: Michigan

Post Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:19 am

Re: Safe Chronicles, Part II - Beyond the Lockroom

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Wassup madsamurai?! You want in on summa this easy gravy?! :mrgreen:
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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madsamurai

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Post Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:06 am

Re: Safe Chronicles, Part II - Beyond the Lockroom

Oldfast wrote:.
Wassup madsamurai?! You want in on summa this easy gravy?! :mrgreen:

You know I'm always a sucker for some gravy...
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

Posts: 4114

Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2011 3:16 pm

Location: Michigan

Post Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:27 am

Re: Safe Chronicles, Part II - Beyond the Lockroom

madsamurai wrote:
Oldfast wrote:.
Wassup madsamurai?! You want in on summa this easy gravy?! :mrgreen:

You know I'm always a sucker for some gravy...

HahAAAaa! :rofl: Well lets keep this graaaavy-train-a-movin' then...
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

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Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2011 3:16 pm

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Post Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:28 am

Re: Safe Chronicles, Part II - Beyond the Lockroom

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So rumor has it this safe originally came out of a State Bank in a nearby town.
Of course safe tails can be a little like fishing stories - they tend to grow.
So who knows. All that really matters is that I'm in front of it now.


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This one sets about waist-high. And an arm length wide and deep.
Dial - Floor: 26" A cushion (or 2) put me at a nice height for spinnin'.

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Handle - Dial: 5 3/4
Dial diameter: 3 1/2


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Stepped Door approx. 6" thick.


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...and the heartbeat of this box... an S&G 6810 Roller Bolt.
My first encounter with one. And I'll admit it was a bit of a grind.

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Here's what I've found time & again. Some locks will give you an absolutely
BRUTAL introduction. Stick with it though(!) and you'll become quite intimate
with each other. The next one you meet up with may just be a brief handshake.


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Below are some not so great photos, sorry. But I did my best
to tryn' get you a more detailed view of the drive cam here.


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The remaining photos are somewhat random - taken while servicing the safe and lock.

At this point, the bolt work (simplistic in this one) has been thoroughly degreased,
greased and reinstalled. The guts of the lock removed, and the lock case cleaned.

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Mr. 00247... this next one made me think of you. Nothing amazing, but...
Here we spot a glimpse of the original paint job beneath the dial & dial ring.

Given enough time, I'll bet our resident 'Safe Whisperer' could
bring this old girl back to her golden age... before she was
ruthlessly raped by two gallons of thick black paint. lol


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Some bits & pieces. Getting ready for a very thorough cleaning. Then,
an intense examination. Everything must be 'just so' for me to feel
comfortable to continue. There's a lot riding on it! I hope I never
get that call - an owner whose safe I worked on some time ago.

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WARNING(!): Lock-Porn below! (br)ass from the Golden Age.

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The outer-circumference on all three wheels are lined with very shallow cuts.

Below is the gravity driven lever. Note the hollowed out underside of the fence.
This may work in conjunction with the cuts. Or, there may be no relation at all.

I will say that this did not affect my manipulation (this time).
In fact, I was not even aware of them until after the opening.
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Also discovered (after the opening) there was no retaining ring in this lock.
Wheel 3 was very loose and very wobbly! But again, it did not affect the
manipulation. Well, maybe it did... but in the end the safe was open.

The one you see here is what I made. It's snug and serves its' purpose.

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And here she is... ready to see some more years of use (or abuse).


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Sargent & Greenleaf 6810 Roller Bolt
Group 2 ... 3 wheel ... key change ... gravity driven lever

CONTACT AREA: LCP about middle of blank area.
RCP @ about 20

BINDING ORDER: 3, 1, 2 (with this one anyway)

DIALING: LRL Right to stop (@ approx. 100)

HANDLE: Turns clockwise to open



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Wish I could provide you with a little more detail regarding the gate signatures this lock gave.
I worked on this one in the fall and have since lost some of my notes on it :/ I do recall some
of them were rather shallow, and worse yet; lengthy... making it kinda difficult to sort out.
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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Riyame

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Post Wed Jan 17, 2018 4:17 am

Re: Safe Chronicles, Part II - Beyond the Lockroom

Great looking post Oldfast! I love the new picture style.

Congrats on getting your hands on a rollerbolt they are neat locks.
PhoneMan: I always knew I'd say something stupid and it would be someone's sig
macgng: i am an equal opportunity pervert
macgng: aww fuck thats goin in someone sig :-(

If life gives you melons, you might be dyslexic.
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

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Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2011 3:16 pm

Location: Michigan

Post Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:02 pm

Re: Safe Chronicles, Part II - Beyond the Lockroom

Riyame wrote:Great looking post Oldfast! I love the new picture style.

Thanks man! I've been working really hard to tryn' learn some basic photo editing in GIMP.
It's been a really frustratingly slow learning curve for me. But the results are pretty nice.

Riyame wrote:Congrats on getting your hands on a rollerbolt they are neat locks.

Yeah, given what I've heard accomplished safe techs say about this lock,
I was more than little intimidated. And it certainly lived up to its' name.
This one was no picnic. Was definitely a small step-up-the-ladder for me!

Riy, you notice the large washer (obviously not original) that's been used to retain the roller bolt/lever arm assembly? I've dealt with several of these now; the first couple both had makeshift washers and bolts like this. The third was missing it all together and I was forced to take similar measures. Looking at the S&G catalogs it's difficult to see much from the hand drawings... I was curious if you've ever seen one or have photos of one in its' original state? What was normally used? And why is it always missing?
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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Riyame

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Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2011 5:16 pm

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Post Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:44 pm

Re: Safe Chronicles, Part II - Beyond the Lockroom

Oldfast wrote:
Riy, you notice the large washer (obviously not original) that's been used to retain the roller bolt/lever arm assembly? I've dealt with several of these now; the first couple both had makeshift washers and bolts like this. The third was missing it all together and I was forced to take similar measures. Looking at the S&G catalogs it's difficult to see much from the hand drawings... I was curious if you've ever seen one or have photos of one in its' original state? What was normally used? And why is it always missing?


They should have had a normal cover and the screw holding the cover went where the bolt with that washer was. There would be no way to properly change the combo without the back cover.
PhoneMan: I always knew I'd say something stupid and it would be someone's sig
macgng: i am an equal opportunity pervert
macgng: aww fuck thats goin in someone sig :-(

If life gives you melons, you might be dyslexic.
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10ringo10

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Post Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:51 pm

Re: Safe Chronicles, Part II - Beyond the Lockroom

Great work oldfast ... checkout the new topic in bypass destructive - section on forum as a thank you

enjoy it may come in handy one day :shock: spinning as we know is not always successful on new safes
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10ringo10

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Post Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:24 pm

Re: Safe Chronicles, Part II - Beyond the Lockroom

Riyame wrote:
Oldfast wrote:
Riy , you notice the large washer (obviously not original) that's been used to retain the roller bolt/lever arm assembly? I've dealt with several of these now; the first couple both had makeshift washers and bolts like this. The third was missing it all together and I was forced to take similar measures. Looking at the S&G catalogs it's difficult to see much from the hand drawings... I was curious if you've ever seen one or have photos of one in its' original state? What was normally used? And why is it always missing?


They should have had a normal cover and the screw holding the cover went where the bolt with that washer was. There would be no way to properly change the combo without the back cover.


The cover plate as Riy says looks like this for roller bolt s&g 6810 but lock is a 6800 in the reeds safe book - the plate lol
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Last edited by 10ringo10 on Fri Jan 19, 2018 10:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

Posts: 4114

Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2011 3:16 pm

Location: Michigan

Post Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:28 pm

Re: Safe Chronicles, Part II - Beyond the Lockroom

Oh, ok. Yeah, that makes sense now guys. Thanks.

Although, the next one I opened... doesn't really look to be designed with
a case, let alone a back cover. There's no walls. Just an area that comes
out to serve as a lever-stop. Anyway, that's the next one I'll be posting
here... so we can take a closer look at it then. Maybe it's all original.

And thanks for some interesting reading ringo :D SAVED
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
<<

Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

Posts: 4114

Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2011 3:16 pm

Location: Michigan

Post Tue Jan 23, 2018 2:32 am

Re: Safe Chronicles, Part II - Beyond the Lockroom

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Handle - Dial: 6"
Dial diameter: 3 1/2


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PAT'D
SEP 18 1860
JAN 9 1866
AUG 28 1866
JULY 14 1857
EX. 7 YEARS
JULY 14 1871




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Always exciting to find out what scenes you'll be treated to with these oldies.
Works of art really. Each hand-painted (I believe). Each unique from the next.

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Sargent & Greenleaf 6810 Roller Bolt
Group 2 ... 3 wheel ... key change ... gravity driven lever

DIALING: LRL Right to stop @ 20 (normally @ 100)

CONTACT AREA: LCP 33 - RCP 43 (uncommon)

HANDLE: Turns clockwise to open



In a way, this one kinda stole my thunder. On the other hand, it felt good that
I was able to recognize exactly what was going on and use it to my advantage.

I knew I'd be tackling another 6810. But when I arrived and began spinning, it had a
sort of 'geared' sound and feel to it. Indirect-drive? Maybe a friction-fence? What in the
hell was on the other side of this door?! Thankfully it wasn't long before it dawned on me.

I WAS dealing with a 6810... just a very old & worn 6810. More precisely, nose-to-driver wear.
I'd imagine this takes many years, but both the lever nose & the drive cam will eventually eat
away at each other. Minute as it may be, it's enough to allow the fence to touch/ride wheel(s)

Why the odd gear sound/feel though? Let's take a quick look at wheels from the previous 6810
we were discussing. Remember, all three wheels are lined with evenly spaced, shallow cutouts.
As the fence rides these a ticking is produced that could almost sound like gear teeth meshing.


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In the case of this lock, depending on which wheel(s) I was turning, I noted fence-to-wheel contact
for roughly 1-2 thirds of a single revolution. I spent some time exploring this through both sound and
feel. Any number of things could clue me into one or more gates right away. An abrupt lapse in sound
for example, could very well be a gate as it passes under the fence. Or, it's possible I may even feel a
slight 'snag' as the fence catches the trailing edge of a gate. So this was definitely worth some effort.

I came away with several areas. One of them (an abrupt stop-start in sound) held my interest more so
than the others tho. I eventually decided to tag this to w1. The plan now was to explore the remaining
wheels in the same manner, but with w1 parked @ left "X". So... with AWL to "X" I began turning right to
pick up w3 when CLUNK! The end. All three wheels were set to a single #. 4x left "X", right to solid stop

This may seem all too easy - and maybe it should have been, lol - but it actually took me
a bit to sort it all out. Overall, a great experience & a neat safe to work on. I was pleased

As to the odd contact area of 33-43, normally found within the blank area of the dial; I can only assume
the orientation between dial & spindle are off. As to why or when this occurred is anyones guess when it
comes to a lock this old. I did notice a good deal of play between the dial & spindle. The two parts were
not solidly connected. Anyway, no need to look any further; the job this time around was just an opening.


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" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
<<

Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

Posts: 4114

Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2011 3:16 pm

Location: Michigan

Post Tue Feb 06, 2018 2:24 am

Re: Safe Chronicles, Part II - Beyond the Lockroom

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One of the more frequent questions I get... WHAT have I found in safes.


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Truth is, I often see more shit ON TOP of safes than IN them! lol


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26" tall . . 38" wide . . 31" deep


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This one took some hours. Mainly due to a loose spline key, which I failed
to test for or recognize early on (lesson learned!). Once aware of it though
I was able to obtain consistent readings. The process was then slow but sure.

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Let's take a look at some things on the backside of the door.


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(above) Looking from the back of the door, there are 6 bolts.
3 inactive on the hinge-side. 3 active bolts on the other end.

(below) Removing the door cover reveals a second panel. This panel encompasses the 3
active bolts & also interacts with the detent bar that runs horizontally to the hinge side.
Don't get it? The entire panel slides toward the hinge-side pulling with it the active bolts.
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Though I may not fully understand the purpose of this setup, I'll tell you the most
obvious function resulting from it: When the door is open it remains unlocked --
neither the handle nor dial can be turned. As the door is closed the detent bar
is pressed in, forcing the bolts to automatically extend to lock the door.

Something else; all 3 active bolts are spring-loaded. It is said (or so I've read) the
top & bottom bolts will act as 'relock bolts'--triggered if the panel were removed.



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Diebold 177-23B

Group 2 ... 3 wheel ... key change ... spring-loaded lever

DIALING: LRL Right to stop @ 80

CONTACT AREA: LCP 91 - RCP 98

HANDLE: Turns clockwise "up"


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17723B... the suffix 'B' signifies this lock does have a ball detent. However, many 177's
did not have a ball detent to hold the bolt in the extended position. If the bolt happens
to move, so too does the lever arm. This could potentially drive you nuts with inconsistent
readings. For this reason I rigged a magnet/bungee to maintain CW pressure on the handle.

Not needed this time... but it certainly didn't hurt when I wasn't sure one way or the other.
Another lock notorious for this is the C-100 found on the Montgomery Ward Home Deposit
safes. You know the ones; black plastic dial. Also labeled Meilink, Fire Fyter, or Brinks.

Anyway, great fun... and the owner of this one was a real nice fella to work for/with.
He also had a second safe I tackled later that evening before leaving. Good stuff.


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" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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Deadbolt

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Post Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:28 am

Re: Safe Chronicles, Part II - Beyond the Lockroom

Thanks! Nice writeup.
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MartinHewitt

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Post Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:22 am

Re: Safe Chronicles, Part II - Beyond the Lockroom

Oh so interesting!

Where does the detent bar interact with the lock or cover?
Extending the bolts surely can't happen while closing the door, but when it is closed?
When the bolts are extended by the bar, the lock is still unlocked and the user would have to turn multiple times to fully lock it?
Which part is moving the panel?
Is there a counter measure against punching of the lock?
The safe is all around only one thick layer of steel?
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt
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