1st Manipulation Ward 9007 safe on hold in learning curve

[Fritz the Cat]

Since I did these a while back, After my "improvement in graphing" .These graphs and HI LO tests don't have my highest confidence level but here they are in full glory.. In the HI LOW chart I used LRL rotation. The second graph is an amplified part of the first graph .Wheel action on paper

Yeah .I got to slowdown and look at these graphs .

[Jaakko Fagerlund]

The one who wrote that locksmithing book about manipulation should be shot on sight, as I see EVERYONE repeats the same stupid mistake over and over due to that book: In hi/low testing the test order is backwards, meaning many many more spinnings and ease of confusion happening.

So instead of this:
8 18 18
18 8 18
18 18 8

One should do this:
18 18 8
18 8 18
8 18 18

That way the testing is fast due to less spinning required and it lessens the amount of error possibilities.

[MartinHewitt]

On your tests there is consistently one wheel significantly lower than the others. So 18 is on wheel 1, 63 on wheel 2. Because of the flash I think I would set wheel 1 to 68, wheel 2 to 13 and then scan wheel 3. And if this does not provide helpful information wheel 1 to 8, wheel 2 to 53 and then scan wheel 3. 8 and 53 are most probably not the gates, but the flash seems to be out of the way.

[Fritz the Cat]

The one who wrote that locksmithing book about manipulation should be shot on sight,

So instead of this:
8 18 18
18 8 18
18 18 8

One should do this:
18 18 8
18 8 18
8 18 18

That way the testing is fast due to less spinning required and it lessens the amount of error possibilities.

Which book were you refering to ?

So this is a matter of saving on spin movements ? I'm interested . But the end results , the measyrments of right contact point and the Left CP to get the contact area size is correct right ?

I'll dothe graph 68 - 13 - [xx] and run W3 to map . As suggested in Martins post.

pluas the following graphs

[MartinHewitt]

He is probably referfing to The National Locksmith - Guide to Manipulation.

[Fritz the Cat]

DAY 21

I wasn't sure if it he was just refering to saving time and effort as to a short cut in dial movement or accuracy of the found data .

Truth is I'm a new comer to this hobby and not a hunred percent confident . I've been trying to understand dial movement . I could follow daggers exsample in his pdf book by just replacing the numbers with my Ward safe numbers . I havn't found a Hi Low exsample worked out in "The Art of Manipulation " I got to check it out.

Martin I did the first graph you discribed in our past post , 13 - 68 -[xx] . I found a possibe gate at 92 for W#3 . I'll amplify and upload nthe pics

With reading multiple books I have to be carefull not t mix apples and oranges .

[MartinHewitt]

I wasn't sure if it he was just refering to saving time and effort as to a short cut in dial movement or accuracy of the found data .

Probably both. Saving time is important if you take part in competitions or are generally in a hurry like burglars. If you keep some wheels unmodified the accuracy can be improved.

Martin I did the first graph you discribed in our past post , 13 - 68 -[xx] . I found a possibe gate at 92 for W#3 .

Sounds great! Then the next steps are probably to set W#1 to 13 and W#3 to this 90 something and scan around 68 with W#2 and then scan W#1 either at XX-68-9x or if you got a good indication for W#2 at the previous step then that instead of 68.

Martin Hewitt

[Fritz the Cat]

I have determined that at this time and this lock I need a Vernier scale made for my dial . In order to repeat measurements of the dial better than 1/4 increments I'll make a Vernier scale with a 1/10 increment reading ability.

There is also a little loose movement of the dial not measured but ar least 1/8 of an inc movement approximatly seen visully .

A little pressure towards the Contact point ,L or R, and the reading changes and stops.If I release the the dial moves back ever so slightly but it does move ressure .It sort of feels it is climbing a little hill but rolls back .

Question do I read the dial with a slight prssure or should the dialbe read with hands off ? . Its a newbie question for sure and Ive read here some on here the dial edge brush against his thumb ever so lightly but still move thedial?

So thats where I'm at . Basically practicing graphing and doing HI LOW test like its done in the " The Art of Manipulation" They don't call it a hi liw test but refer to it like this ." If you "lose the indication" . By shifting the wheel setting off 10 incs from the indication and measuring the Contact area and thus qualifing the indication or not .

The methodof HiLow testing as described in the "Guide" hass yoset up 3 combinations . And then give the wheel movments istructions like L L R , L R l ,R L L . Which seemd to be non intuitive . For instance R L L Why move the wheels a second time to the left ? Its confusing.

I know there is a program that prints out the scale on paper but If i can I'll make it out of metalwith engraved lines (or scratches) . My dial dia of where the scale will fit upto is 2 1/2 inches . Which leads me to my next question is what are the average dial diameters? A neat little kit couldbe made that would cover the connnn sizes needed. How many different scaleswouldI need to cover a large percentage of safe locks ?

I've also ordered a Sargent and greenleaf 6730 lock used from ebay .I'm sure that opening it and viewung the wheel action would gretly help my onderstanding . I'm going to mount it on a wood stand but I might go for this blue plastic stand for 10 dollars on ebay.

[Fritz the Cat]

Do wheels 1 and 2 have a full range selection of numbers 1 to 100 ?
I'm assuming that there is a "forbbiden" zone on my wheel 3 perhaps 95 to 10 . Do the contact points define the zone ? How close can the numbers be to each other ? I can't find any instruction manual for this lock . Would it be simular to an S & G 6730 ?

[MartinHewitt]

Fritz, I don't think you will gain much by more accuracy. I believe you would profit much more by acquiring a deeper understanding about the lock's operation. So you would be able to get a mental picture of what is happening inside the lock, what the graphs do tell you and what you should examine next. But if you would like to build a Venier scale and try it out, please do so and show us photos. But meanwhile, how are your newest graphs?

And regarding your newest questions:
Yes, wheels 1 and 2 should have full range.
Yes, the contact points define the zone. One thing is how large the forbidden zone has to be technically and how large the recommendation by the manufacturer is.

Martin Hewitt

[Fritz the Cat]

I did Graph 1 over again , probalby the 3rd try , and I redid a graph by setting w#3 on 70 and runnibg w#1&2 . I'm looking for traces of any gates but I found some likly areas around 70-72 and 30-32 but when I try to duplicate the measurements or take readings every increment the gates don't show.

I don't have normal vision . I can't get a drivers lic. because its so poor .But when I read the dial just 6 inchs from my face it seems like I should be getting better repeatability . Currently I'm doing 2.5 incremnts and measuring to the nearest 1/4 inc .That means only a possible 180 points ofdata in 1 increment on the graph.
If did every inc by 1 and read the dial to 1/10 inc I'dhave 1000 possibe points of data in 1 inc on the graph .Thats better that 5x more "resoliving " power to the graph .

Another thing that might help are a set of help sheets . Have the moves spelt out and leave blanks for possible indications . A help sheet for running w 1 2 and 3 seperatly . I would follow the ninstructions on the sheet until I get the hang of the procedure .

The S & G 6730 will help me see the action better.

[Fritz the Cat]

I just got another pdf book today called "Techniques of Safe and Vault Manipulation" by Desert publications 1978 . The descripton of graphing and wheel movements are described in step by step detail which I appreciate. Basically it says the same thing as other books but in more detail . I got it from a safecracking blog website . The book also describes how to make a Radio Shack Amlifier with "a harmonica pick up mike". Interesting as I have a Radio Shack amplifier . Also available are Safemans Volume 1 and 2 plus yeagers book , a different and ledgible pdf copy from one usually available .
Guide to Manipulation is also available.

[Fritz the Cat]

Update : 1 month 2 days .

I'm still practicing graphing and doing some hi low tests. I've noticed that I can manipulate the dial quicker and my understanding of wheel action is getting better .
I've laid out a bunch of graphs on the table in order where wheel 3 was parked at while W2 & W2 wre graphed . Starting low and going up to 93 it seemed like the base lines got closer toabout 10. 1 increments to 10.25 . Like the tide slowly receding more and more details showed up which lead me to a couple indications i've still have to test .
I'm sure that the high peak at 17 belongs to W2 . When graphing with all wheels right to 17 and left to contact you CANNOT feel the Left contact !! So I did this AWR to 17 measure Contact points ,still skimming LC point . Them turn left 1x pick up wheel 3 park it 1/4 of the dial . Turn right to contact points . Still skimming over the left contact . So I repeated the same moves and took w2 off parked elsewhere then back to measure the contact points and finally no peak at 17 , its on W 2 . Finally . I still got confused and thought it was w1 .
I know I over explained this but it was a definate discovery and my first rel deduction .
Hills peaks, and foothills obscure the gates . Im discovering things slowly . Theres also a hill behind the peak but I have to figure out which wheel its on . I know where to liik now for the gates its just is how to uncover them thats hard .

Thats where I'm at now . Eventually I'll find a left to right reading less than 10 increments .

This thread is more about my learning curve experience than a safe manipulation . I'm sure I'll get it soon . I'm not quitting

[MartinHewitt]

I've noticed that I can manipulate the dial quicker and my understanding of wheel action is getting better . ... I'm sure I'll get it soon . I'm not quitting

Sounds great, Fritz!

[Fritz the Cat]

I 've indentified what wheel the big peak ,W1,is and the other hill and wheel "behind " it ,W2,. I maped out W 1 and it seems like the Wheel is off center o the extent that you can see the curve on the graph .Yet no gate yet .
Now if I took a drafting tool called a french curve and averaged out the points on the graph witha smooth line . Perhaps if I looked at the "indications" in relation tothe smoothout curve I'll find somrthing .

Martin,What part of Germany are you from ? I was bornin Flensburg near the Danish border .