The safe waiting for me

[bernie]

It's going ok, messing around with it all the time, I even take it to work, just getting a feel for it, weight of the dial depending on the amount of running wheels, where and when each wheel picks up in both directions. Getting the feel for the contact points, stopping the cam without lifting the lever, all the stuff that you can do without thinking about it. I tried a vernier scale to read the contact points,that worked ok but that's cheating I guess, I may use one when it come to the actual safe though. I'll do some more pictures of the mounted lock and some of the charts when I get consistent at reading the contact points.
I wish I had tried these locks years ago.

[Altashot]

The way I see it, using a vernier scale is not cheating, actually, I find it very wise.
You are only using a known proven method that works and aids in reading minute differences.
What's wrong with that?! Especially when you are just starting out, when you are just getting the feel of it.

I have 20 years experience as a professional locksmith/safe tech and I still use a magnifying glass and a lock amp sometimes.
I use all I can to assure success and sometimes, when things don't go as planned, I change my plans, but still call it a success.
Meaning: When a client call and they need to get in a safe, I say: "Yes I can!". Of course, my plan is to manipulate it. it's much cleaner
and the client thinks that I'm a fu*king genius...But sometimes, manipulation fails, so I drill it.
First plan failed, second plan worked...SUCCESS!!! IT"S OPEN!!! Because, ultimately, the client asked me to open it, and I did just that.

Another thing you may want to try to increase fingers sensitivity, press the tip of your dominant hand's fingers on a blunt object. It can be a pen, the tip of a screwdriver
or the nails from your other hand. I even use the corner of the safe I am working on or the handle or where ever I find a sharp corner. Press them in several places hard enough so that it just, just hurts a bit.
You want to get the blood flowing right to the tips, the body thinks it has suffered a small injury and immediately go to work to repair it.
It seems that increased blood flow nourishes the nerves and makes them more receptive, thus more sensitive. After a while, the body realizes that it is only a false alarm,
no injury, so the blood retreats and the super feeling is gone. Just repeat the prosess and keep on spinning.

Have fun!

M.

[bernie]

I had another play the the safe, Thinking to myself "this time it's going to open", how wrong was I lol.
Sat on the floor, magnifying glass attached to the door, out with the graph paper and pencil. Off I go charting AWL, didn't take long to find the first number '10' hmm that cant be wheel 3 it's in the forbidden zone, tested the wheels, it's wheel 3. Off I go again charting AWL with wheel 3 set at 10 each time (what a pain that was) then I find another indication at 40, this is where I think it all went very wrong, I didn't work it out until I got home, finding the number with AWL, wheel 2 actually dials right (clockwise)to dial the number in, so the number you find is NOT the number you dial. You guys already know this, I should of worked it out when the contact area got larger instead of smaller after testing it AWL and then dialling it right but I didn't, after sitting on the floor for 6 hours I gave up and went home. I have found a way to dial W2 left but I guess it's easier to work out how much to increase/decease the number by in order for it to end up in the correct place. More studying of short cuts to get the wheels where I want them, simple design complex operation until you get your head around it.

Lesson learnt
I need to practise and study what going on in there a lot more.
Don't try to run before you can walk.
Don't give up until you'r seeing little white lines everywhere you look.

I must be a little crazy I guess, I enjoyed it, I gained from it and I will be going back for more lol. The two locks (safe and practise) feel totally different so it's good practise to try both. Like I said there is no time limit on the safe, I will take it down at some point, until then I'll keep spinning the dial watching and learning.

Cheers
B

[Oldfast]

SIX hours... you're a beast! And it sounds like you learned a great deal in that time.

Seeing gates already is definitely a good sign that you're touch is coming along nicely.

I'm curious, what are the contact points for that lock?

[jharveee]

The next time you work on the locked safe, bring along your practice lock.
You can simulate the dialing sequence on the practice lock with the back open.
Watch the wheels to see if in fact you are moving the correct wheels you want in the correct direction.
Also will let you see if you are not moving wheels that you are parking.
Might help.?
For me when I started, I never knew for sure if I was spinning what wheel which way when I wanted. LOL.
Always wondering if my parked wheel was the one I was spinning.?

[bernie]

SIX hours... you're a beast! And it sounds like you learned a great deal in that time.

Seeing gates already is definitely a good sign that you're touch is coming along nicely.

I'm curious, what are the contact points for that lock?

Contact points are 4, 14, the lock is worn and wheels spin very easy, not at all like my practise lock.
I used a magnifier and an amplifier taped to the safe, I could feel and hear what was going on but as I was not dialling correctly the safe did not open.
After about 4 hours looking at the dial your eyes are playing tricks on you, you start to see what you want rather than what is actually there lol

Cant wait to have another go

Cheers

[bernie]

The next time you work on the locked safe, bring along your practice lock.
You can simulate the dialing sequence on the practice lock with the back open.
Watch the wheels to see if in fact you are moving the correct wheels you want in the correct direction.
Also will let you see if you are not moving wheels that you are parking.
Might help.?
For me when I started, I never knew for sure if I was spinning what wheel which way when I wanted. LOL.
Always wondering if my parked wheel was the one I was spinning.?

Good idea, I'll give that a go next time.
I "think" I know what's going on inside but I cant be sure, so many questions run through my head with every turn of the dial, how many rotations are needed for each wheel, direction of rotation....
One mistake and it's all gone, start all over again.

It's all good fun

[Oldfast]

I think you're doing great. Making good progress. You're quick to spot you're mistakes & learn from them.
I'm actually tempted to not say too much just yet... and wait to see what your next session brings you.

But true to form, I can't keep my mouth shut, lol.
First off, don't let me plant a seed of doubt!

I'd trust what you've found so far & finish your train of thought on your next visit.
ONLY if it doesn't pan out would I turn to some of my random thoughts here.

Taking readings through the contact area can be tricky at first and it's possible to get false readings.
Play it through on your practice lock to make sure you've got it. You could also take an AWL through
the contact area (just as you did before)... but take only the right contact reading. Less room for error.

But I have a feeling you did indeed find a gate at 10. If you find that's the case, I would then shift your
doubt to whether it's really w3 or not. It might do you well to run only one wheel through the area to
see if the gate (10) still pops up. I'd use the gate you found at L40 to park the other wheels. Or hell,
you could do just the opposite as well... use L10 to park at while running a single wheel through the
area of 40 to see what wheel that is. Making that determination would help narrow things down too.

Isolating wheels is not easy at first (I know!) But as jharveee suggested... refer to your practice lock.

Can't wait to hear what your next session brings

[Altashot]

I know what you mean by seeing little white lines everywhere...LOL
Your eyes after a while will play tricks on you, that is why I always take breaks.
Every 20 minutes, I look 20 feet away for 20 seconds. It re-align my eyes in their sockets.
I also take a 15 minutes break every 3 hours. During that break, I often think of what I've been doing.
More often than not, I realize something I've been doing wrong or something I might have neglected.
I get this Light bulb above my head, then I go back to it and verify my thoughts.
You need to take those breaks to clear your head.
In addition to great understanding and great skills, manipulation is also a state of mind.
Some days it works, other days I just can't get into it. It can be a noise, the rain outside or just the fact that I have a cold.
If I don't feel right, chances are I won't be successful.

To alleviate eye pain, I try not to take readings using the white lines at all.
Like this.

The small wire is actually a twist tie with it's coating removed and the yellow paper are self adhesive labels cut to size.

M.

[bernie]

Some great ideas there.
The time actually went very quickly, I was so engrossed in what I was doing that it only felt like an hour not six hours. It will be a week until I get another go.
That's another week of practice in my spare time, on the next visit I'll be checking what I thought I found before I do anything else.
I have to use a much lighter touch on the safe to feel contact points, I check and check again before marking them on the chart, very slow going but I'm in no rush.
I just want to hear that fence drop

I'll try the wire and labels on the practise lock see how I get on.

Thanks for all your input, it all helps to "adapt and overcome"

Cheers

[bernie]

A bit of progress, I've been playing around with the ideas above, what a difference it has made. I've managed to crack the combo a couple of times now without paper and pencil. With the thin wire, paper dot and only reading the RCP, I've cracked the unknown combo in just under 20 mins.

AWL to find the first number (W3), rocking the dial each time on the LCP before taking the RCP reading, then AWR and park W3L on it's number to find the next number(s), sometimes I only find one number and sometimes two (lot more practice needed), the last is just trying every number until it's cracked.

sandgdial.png

First time I did it, it was a shock to the system, just couldn't believe it lol
Thanks for the help

Back to the spinning now
Cheers
Bernie

[Oldfast]

You're kickin' ass! Keep at it.

And you're learning much quicker than I did

[Deadlock]

I was reading in a book the other day, The Future of the Mind, by Michio Kaku, that there is a rule; The 10000 hour rule.
Basically, it states that to be a professional at anything, one must practice for at least 10000 hours.
This creates new paths in the brain that allows the information to travel faster and more effectively.
Soooo...It doesn't happen overnight.

I don't know that book, but I know the number 10,000 is mentioned in the martial arts world.

The idea is, if you repeat a movement 10,000 times, it becomes like a reflex. Automatic.

10,000 hours is a lot when you consider there are only 8,760 hours in a 365 day year.

If you were to practise manipulation for 40 hours a week, for 48 weeks a year, that would be 1,920 hours.

10,000 hours would take about 5 years, 10 weeks. At the end of that, you'd be some kind of manipulation Yoda alright - and you'd probably be talking like him too.

[hcmhcmhcm555]

If you are already used to visualizing, then it's shouldn't be too difficult for you to visualize a combination lock either.
I visualize myself in almost every lock I pick or manipulate. It has help me understand how everything works and even successfully diagnose
problems with various locks or safes.

I picture myself inside the lock, as if I was a miniature me, the size of an insect. That way I can "look around" and "see" what is happening.
I psyche myself saying: I am the key, or the pick, or drive cam or whatever else I need to be, all with my eyes closed at first, then I mentally
hold onto the picture or scenario I created. Once the picture is clearly formed in my mind, I can "see" with my hands.

People that have a strong sense of spacial visualization, from my experience, have a slight advantage than those that don't have it or those that have not developed it enough.
I am not a teacher, but I have explained my technique to many apprentices and, many have thanked me for changing the way they approach different tasks as they became more successful at it.
Those that didn't believe me or thought that it was foolish to picture yourself as an insect or mini you or whatever, either gave up or seemingly delayed their
skills from developing further and are, in my opinion, hindering their learning curve.

When working with a combination lock, I don't even have to count my turns anymore or even look at my hand to know how many turns
I have completed, the image in my mind is so clear that I can "see" the wheels pick up, I always know where the gate is on the cam and which wheel(s) I am moving.
Fortunately for me, this sense has always been strong even when I was a little kid, but anyone can do it. like anything else, with practice, one gets better at it.

What you have is a gift, walk in there with confidence and spin that dial. even if you are only "spinning your wheels" (pun intended) at first, visualize and pay close attention
to what your hand is feeling. Try to feel when a wheel is picked up and visualize it moving, try to keep that wheel moving while respecting it's relation with the drive cam.
Visualization has helped me allot and I was rewarded with success. I hope others will too.

Now, I can visualize almost anything...Except where the gates are.

I don't like to wish people good luck as it implies that success would be based on mere luck.
Instead I wish people success, as this is a direct result of what you were trying to do in the first place...Open that b*tch!

Keep us posted.

M.

Hi Altashot, My mind works the same way, seeing the gates would be a real plus LOL H.Murrin ;:--))

[bernie]

Well that's another 2 hours getting to know the safe LOL, no joy this time, could be me trying too hard or it could of been the washing machine on a spin cycle.
I've come up with a new plan now, attached a wire pointer to the dial and printed a scale to stick on the safe, the test piece is in the picture below. seems to work well on the practice lock, the pointer will be longer on the safe, make it easier to see the small differences in contact points, I figure if I can make the practice lock easy to crack then it should/could make the safe hard instead of impossible LOL. I've been informed that the safe has not been open for at least 9 years. Next time it's going down lol!

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