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So you want to manipulate a safe?

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selim

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Diabolical Pinning Master & Lock Philanthropist
Diabolical Pinning Master & Lock Philanthropist

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Location: Maine

Post Sat Jun 23, 2012 9:04 am

Re: So you want to manipulate a safe?

And I must add Mastersmith is one of the best guy's i've chatted with.

He has put his professional reputation on the line to back me up.

For that I say thanks man.
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

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Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2011 9:16 am

Location: Michigan

Post Sat Jun 23, 2012 12:37 pm

Re: So you want to manipulate a safe?

No worries Selim :) My intention was not to rush anyone along, I was just curious to the where abouts of the package.

In fact, I anticipate having the same dilema as you... no time! But manipulation has always intrigued me, so I'll do
my best to get what I can out of it in a small amount of time.... and that might mean some all-nighters. lol

According to the list, I'm after you Selim. Then I'll be sending it on to John.

I'll PM ya my address. But again, don't rush on my account. Thanks
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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selim

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Diabolical Pinning Master & Lock Philanthropist
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Post Sat Jun 23, 2012 1:34 pm

Re: So you want to manipulate a safe?

That was my kick in the ass Oldfast.

I'll try to spend some time every night " trying " to learn a new skill.

I'm a slow learner tho.


:razz:
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

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Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2011 9:16 am

Location: Michigan

Post Mon Oct 29, 2012 8:09 pm

Re: So you want to manipulate a safe?

Received the pass-along package from Selim!

A few things to mention:

1. Mastersmith, I cannot begin to explain the excitement you've generated within me
because of your generosity... so instead I will just say............. thank you.

Manipulation has intrigued me for quite some time and I am thrilled to have a course
setting right in front of me. I will not waste this opportunity. I will absolutely devote
every spare hour I have over the next two weeks in hopes of absorbing as much of the
material as possible. Things do not come naturally to me... they don't just 'instantly
make sense'. My learning curve is much more involved and repetitive. Basically I beat
the shit into my brain until it becomes as natural as breathing. I hope I'm able to gain
at least a general understanding of all this, and look forward seeking out more adv.
material. I'll be starting lesson 7 as soon as I'm done writing this. lol

2. Selim has added a cutaway to the pass-along!!! So now the package will contain:
*3 safe dials... 2 of which are mounted.
*and obviously, the course material.

3. According to the list, you'll be after me John. I will PM you sometime just to be
sure you're still interested in receiving this when the time comes for me to send it on.
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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GWiens2001

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Lock-Goblin-Gordon
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Post Mon Oct 29, 2012 9:21 pm

Re: So you want to manipulate a safe?

Definately would love to be on the list, and will be happy to add what I can to make this a better thing for the next person.

Gordon
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gnarus8429

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Location: Kentucky, US

Post Tue Oct 30, 2012 11:59 am

Re: So you want to manipulate a safe?

Would like to be on the list as well. I have always been interested in this too. Would be great to have the opportunity. Thanks for getting this started Mastersmith, it appears that it will be a very cool and much sought after pass along.
I have no special talent. I am only passionately curious.
-Albert Einstein
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rai

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Post Wed Oct 31, 2012 8:59 am

Re: So you want to manipulate a safe?

If someone out there has any safe locks to sell or trade, this would be a good thread to mention it on, so that people who have had the practice piece for a few weeks could locate and get a lock to follow up on their new skills,

I have had various such locks at times, but currently own a mosler round door about a foot and a half in diameter and 9 inches thick with lock incorporated in it and some other safe door that has plastic tumblers in the normal cast iron lock box. I don't think plastic tumblers work well for manipulation but I would be interested in hearing from any experienced person on that topicl
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pickafication

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Location: Canada Vancouver

Post Wed Oct 31, 2012 2:49 pm

Re: So you want to manipulate a safe?

i have a couple safe locks i could trade/sell off, but it would have to wait until november when i get home. 2 are s&g locks and other are oldies

And i look forward to hearing how you get along oldfast!
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

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Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2011 9:16 am

Location: Michigan

Post Sat Nov 17, 2012 9:51 pm

Re: So you want to manipulate a safe?

OH MY #^$%*%!! So my absence here on the forum lately is do to this little pass-along. lol
I cannot begin to explain the inertia that has been created within me because of this course.

I'm very happy with the general overview I've gained & the progress I've made in the past few weeks
with this course... but I also know I've just barely scratched the surface & have a LOOOONG way to go.
I'm now fully entranced with manipulation & cannot get nor absorb as much info as quick as I'd like to.

First off, I thought my alotted time with this course was only 2 wks... when I actually had 3. So I had packed
2 wks worth of time into the first week lol. Along the way, I took the time to mount one of my own dials, which
I found is no easy task without the right tools and knowledge. I learned alot though from doing it & did eventually
end up with a VERY smooth working dial.

By the end of week #1, I had successfully graphed & opened several different combinations in two different dials.
Although I knew the combo each time, my graphs indicated true & I was certain they would've lead me in the right
direction even with an unknown combination. Needless to say I was quite excited and was itching for the real deal.

My girl quickly learned how to use a change key and dialed in a new unknown combination for me to work on.
My FIRST AUTHENTIC OPENING occurred about an 1 1/2 hrs later when it popped to the tune of 18-77-50 !!!!!
I also had some failures along the way. One of which was when working a dial with the combination I myself
had set. I was able to 'read' wheel #3, but could not get anything else to ring true. That's ok... at this point
it's just a lack of experience that left me not knowing a different avenue to take. That'll come with time.

Through all this I religiously reviewed and regurgitated again & again. Paying very close attention to the
direction & number of rotations the different lessons called for. The cutaway Selim added was of GREAT
value... for I was able to understand what exactly was happening and why I was doing it... rather than
just going through the motions because "the book told me to". Undoubtedly, this needs to remain with
the pass-along, but I'll really miss this cutaway - so I decided to spend a good portion of a day taking
another one of my dials and making it a cutaway : )

After feeling like I'd learned 'long division' so to speak, I moved on to Mark Bates on "intelligent dialing".
I still have alot to learn before learning quicker & more advance methods, but I had great success with
what he had to offer. He's a genius in his own right! Where can I obtain more shit from this guy!?

Now... Mastersmith has requested that each person add something to the package for the next guy:
Having this course for a few weeks has meant a GREAT deal to me... so in my opinion, this is a very
small price to pay! So I've REALLY been racking my brain as to what I can add to show my appreciation.

Although I've been lookin' at a few things I could add, my re-occurring thought is to DO something rather
than ADD something. The fact that I don't want to take the time and effort to do some of the things I'm
thinking of... tells me that's exactly what I should be doing LOL. Come Monday, my 3 wks is up though.
If you guys don't mind, I'd like to take just a few additional days to run with a few ideas? My hope is
to enhance the experience & shorten the learning curve for the next person. And I still may add
something else too.... just for good measure.

THANK YOU Mastersmith!!!!

P.S. I'm on the look-out for ANYTHING safe related that anyone might be up to sell, trade or give away!
Reading material, installation tools (dial ring alignment tool, spline keys even), parts, locks, dials, etc.
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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MBI

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Location: Utah, USA

Post Sat Nov 17, 2012 10:26 pm

Re: So you want to manipulate a safe?

That's a nice, detailed report on your progress. Your posts always add some nice insights to the forum.

Many thanks also to Mastersmith for putting together this package to begin with.
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

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Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2011 9:16 am

Location: Michigan

Post Tue Nov 20, 2012 6:04 pm

Re: So you want to manipulate a safe?

Thanks for your patience all... I know there's alot of people waiting on this.
I'm working diligently with the few hours I have in the evenings & was up till
the early morning hours last night. Hope to have this package prepped the way
I want it for the next person(s) and in the mail by tomorrow or Thursday.
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

Posts: 4412

Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2011 9:16 am

Location: Michigan

Post Sat Nov 24, 2012 4:09 pm

Re: So you want to manipulate a safe?

Ok guys. My primary objective recently has been nothing but getting this pass-a-long on the move again.
For those of you waiting on the list... thank you for the additional days... and I hope what I've added to
package reflects the extended time. My hope is to shorten the learning curve for the next person(s) in line.

Lots to talk about. First off, here's a look at what the package currently contains so you know what to expect.

Image

THE BOOK: This is an actual course, copyrighted in the mid 1950's. Yeah, lol, I'd classify this as an 'oldie-but-goodie'.
The course was intended to be taken through the mail. The student would receive packages and/or assignments to be completed and sent back to the school. The course has 34 lessons in total and deals with S&G, Dibold, and Yale (geared roller fence). Towards the end they also cover manipulation and general info on a couple styles that are rare, but still in use: Bottom-drop combination locks & Straight-tailpiece combination locks (like the one found on my cheap-ass Sentry Safe).

A good portion of the course though, will have you working with an S&G 6700, (by far one of the most common dials you're apt to come across). In fact, out of the 34 lessons... you'll be spinning an S&G dial for the first 25. They take you through 3 manipulations.... reason being: depending on WHAT WHEEL reads first, your course of action will be different for each. You're guided through these first few manipulations in excruciating detail... but when you're thru, you'll know the appropriate course of action to take depending what wheel your first # ends up being on.

Although it's all new to me & I've nothing to compare to... I'd say this was a wonderful course that gave me the fundamentals of manipulation. As you become familiar with what you're doing and why, you'll realize there are many ways to skin a cat.... and the books teachings are not always the most proficient or logical when it comes to the direction of rotation & the placement of the wheels. However, I think it's a 'we must learn to crawl before we can walk' kind of thing. So it's all good.

GRAPHS: The course utilizes 4 different sheets. A graph for mapping your reading in order to help you develop a 'picture' of the wheel(s) and find a 'good indication'. After you've honed in on a number, you may have to find what wheel it is on. You'll then use 1 of 3 different data sheets (depending on the scenario) that will help you run some tests to determine which wheel your reading is on.

Obviously, ALL the sheets contained in this course had been used & filled in by the original student. After a great deal of copying (& white-out lol), I've reproduced these while preserving the originals (which are good learning tools as well btw). I'm sending with the course 20 blank copies of each of these four sheets. This way you can get right down to business! Hopefully when one of these stacks run low, the course happens to be with someone that has access to a copier.

THE DIALS: 3 mounted dials... 2 S&G 6700's and 1 cutaway (thanks to Selim!) Also included is an S&G change key with instructions.

The S&G dial (LEFT) I believe, has been with this package since the beginning.

The cutaway (MIDDLE): I cannot stress enough how generous this was of Selim to add this! It's an INVALUABLE
tool when first starting out & it made all the difference in the world for me. Thank you so much again Selim!!!

The S&G dial (RIGHT) originally came to me un-mounted and sat in the box untouched for the 3 weeks. I thought I'd mount it so it'd be of more use to the next guy... little did I know lol. That little son-of-bitch was part of the hold up for getting all this off in the mail guys. Admittedly, lack of knowledge & tools played a part here. I had previously mounted a dial of my own that took some time, but turned out perfect & I was very happy with it. HOWEVER, that was not the case with this one. I seemed to have one problem after another. The reason for telling you about it is 2-fold. 1) Maybe one of you safe techs can give me some insights.... and 2) IF there IS a problem with this dial (which I don't think there is), I want anyone receiving the package to be aware of it. There's nothing worse than trying to learn something new on a faulty piece of equipment! So, here's the problems I encountered:

-First off, the delrin would not seat properly in the dial ring. I think the dial ring may have been pryed off it's previous place which bent the flanges enough so the delrin wasn't flush with the back of the dial ring. Instead, the top half was protruding beyond the back of the ring, while the bottom half sat too far in. This gave the dial quite a wabble as it turned. After some modifying, I alleviated the problem and had the delrin seated flush & even with the back of the dial ring.

-I then noticed some of the wheels were spinning freely at times as I turned the dial. Somehow the change elements in 2 of the 3 wheels had been tripped. Simple fix of engaging the gears in those wheels. All the wheels were now picking each other up correctly and moving solidly.

-3rd... I noticed there was STILL a slight wabble to the dial as it turned. Not nearly to the extent it had been... but still there. Upon closer inspection, I'm certain the spindle is bent, not horribley... but enough :/ There's no way of getting one of these back to true I know, so it is what it is. It still works fine: the dial ring is properly aligned and the dial runs very smoothly all the way around with no 'catch spots'. That's really all I can do.

-And lastly... when all was said and done, it functions properly. Gates are aligned, fence drops in just fine, and the bolt is thrown. HOWEVER, unlike the other locks I have, the bolt can only be thrown once. In other words, you can retract the bolt by turning the dial, but after you throw the bolt back out... the gates are left at a 12 oclock postion, out of alignment with fence. Hmmmm. Any thoughts? Again, I'm inexperienced, but I attribute this to the fact that the lever is not original to this lock. I think it was replaced somewhere along the way.

When I was thru, I had the added bonus of having no idea what the combo was. With wheels freely spinning along the way and shit, I had no idea if 2 of the #'s were right on top of each other, or if the 3rd # was in the forbidden zone, etc. So I thought I'd give it a try just for fun.

After finding nothing definitive when running only wheel 3, I decided to run the entire wheel pack. That's when my notes started.
(Not that you'll be able to make any since out my chicken sctratch... lol... but I thought I'd include them anyway).

Image

I found 55... ran a few tests... and determined it was on wheel 3.
Next step: run wheel 2 while placing wheel 3 on 55.
So I was ready to run wheel 2 all the way around starting at 98... placed wheel 3 at 55...
and headed for my contact points for readings. OPEN lol. So turns out... 0-98-55 :)

With my confidence flying high, I had my girl put in a new combo. I proceeded to fail miserably! Haha!
But I'm going to chalk this one up to in-experience rather than the dial. I've spent an insane amout of time
mounting the thing to the best of my ability. At the very least, it should be more useful than it was anyway.

To members on the waiting list: Again, I apologize for the additional week I've taken, I appreciate your patience,
and I can only hope that what I've done will in some way help the next person.

To Mastersmith: I've not yet PM'd you, but I'd just like to thank you publicly once more.
This is something that has intrigued me for many years. Also, it's always a good thing for me to stay busy;
it keeps my mind & body aligned and pointed in a healthy direction. Your generosity Sir, has opened the door
to a whole new & beautiful world... and for that, I thank you.

Everything's headed out Monday when the post office opens. I'll post once more when it's ACTUALLY in the mail.
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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MBI

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Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2008 9:25 pm

Location: Utah, USA

Post Sat Nov 24, 2012 9:05 pm

Re: So you want to manipulate a safe?

Thanks for the update Oldfast, and for making the new, cleaned up graph sheets for everyone.

I'd like to be added to the waiting list. I believe that would put me in line after gnarus8429?
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

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Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2011 9:16 am

Location: Michigan

Post Sun Nov 25, 2012 12:41 pm

Re: So you want to manipulate a safe?

Also, the data sheets are only a 1/2 page.
I put 2 on each page... so technically, I guess there actually 40 of each Data sheet.
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

Posts: 4412

Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2011 9:16 am

Location: Michigan

Post Mon Nov 26, 2012 3:55 pm

Re: So you want to manipulate a safe?

Alright. This package of joy is enroute to John (as of this morning)

Also, as mentioned in my last post...
Oldfast wrote:... when all was said and done, it functions properly. Gates are aligned, fence drops in just fine, and the bolt is thrown. HOWEVER, unlike the other locks I have, the bolt can only be thrown once. In other words, you can retract the bolt by turning the dial, but after you throw the bolt back out... the gates are left at a 12 oclock postion, out of alignment with fence. Hmmmm. Any thoughts?

I've mounted another dial that has the same symptom, but only SOME of the time.
Most of the time you can throw & retract the bolt repeatedly... no problem.
It's almost like the fence doesn't stay low enough to drag the wheels with it?
Any of you safe men have an idea as to what would cause this?

Thanks
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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