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Safe Talk, with Altashot.

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MBI

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Post Sun Sep 01, 2013 1:45 pm

Re: Safe Talk, with Altashot.

Impressive restoration. After looking at that first pic I'd have thought that safe was just about a write-off.
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Riyame

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Post Sun Sep 01, 2013 1:46 pm

Re: Safe Talk, with Altashot.

Indeed. You are very good at what you do.
PhoneMan: I always knew I'd say something stupid and it would be someone's sig
macgng: i am an equal opportunity pervert
macgng: aww fuck thats goin in someone sig :-(

If life gives you melons, you might be dyslexic.
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oldbiscuit

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Post Sun Sep 01, 2013 3:15 pm

Re: Safe Talk, with Altashot.

Altashot. Nice work, it looks better than new, I'm impressed and jealous!! Mark
"It never fails - as soon as I find the key to success, somebody changes the lock!"
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

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Location: Michigan

Post Sun Sep 01, 2013 3:48 pm

Re: Safe Talk, with Altashot.

What an AMAZING transformation! My only disappointment....
was when I reached the end of your picture reel/ story. lol

Thanks SO much for sharing! I love looking.
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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femurat

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Post Mon Sep 02, 2013 4:00 am

Re: Safe Talk, with Altashot.

Stunning repair job! Thanks for the many pictures, I love to see all the steps.
By the way, I hate body filler and sanding too... but you can't avoid it.

Cheers :)
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rai

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Post Tue Sep 03, 2013 7:39 am

Re: Safe Talk, with Altashot.

bondo, it tastes bad too...
chubbmoslertaylor, only in canada aye think
I'da put reactive armor in that hole....

you gonna thread that hole ya drilled then electro weld it to a bolt?
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Altashot

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Location: Western Canada

Post Tue Sep 03, 2013 9:50 pm

Re: Safe Talk, with Altashot.

Thanks everyone!

I also thought that it was a write off, but, I walked passed it everyday and thought of ways to fix it and...Well, I fixed it. I'm glad I did, I have a buyer.
It wasn't that hard really. Our shop is equipped with all the tools needed to do this kind of thing. In fact we also fabricate safes from the ground up on special orders.

Rai, as for fixing that little JJ, I just started the repairs today.
More to come.

On another note, I opened a Gardall wall safe this morning. Another one of those: "My mother died, we need in..."
It was mounted in the wall in the back of a closet. Well lit large closet and at a good height, chest high while standing up.
I spun the few usual combo's, but no. The lock was in good shape and the contact points were very evident. Because it is a wall safe, the dial is recessed in and doesn't have a comfortable turning knob like most, nope, it is a bar that spans the concave dial face. The motions are like that of turning a wing nut left and right on a bolt, not comfortable and motion wasting, but I could turn it with one finger which greatly reduced the wrist twists. So I started to manipulate, I normally park AWL at 50 then start my procedure. This time was no exception, but, the contact points immediately narrowed...By a lot! Almost a whole number on both sides...I thought to myself, -Wow! Really? One of the numbers is 50!?- I tested the other 2 wheel and confirmed that indeed the first number was 50. -Awesome!- I then worked the 2nd wheel right until I found another "signature"...And there it was, another "dip" and the contact points narrowed again, not as much as the first though. -This is awesome- All I had to do was to work my way left with the 3rd wheel and...POP!
That was cool, I discovered all the numbers in the right order, and on my first rip at it. From the time I found 50, I never moved that wheel again, then I found the 2nd number and never moved that wheel again, then of course the last one...
Took about 8 minutes.

The numbers turned out to be all "known" by the daughter as they were familiar birth years of relatives...
The loot, Nothing at all. The safe was completely empty, except for the metal shelf it came with.

Sorry, no pictures, I didn't even take any, other than an easy and fast manipulation, there was nothing interesting about it.
Just a S and G copy on a steel box.

M.
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GWiens2001

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Post Wed Sep 04, 2013 9:03 am

Re: Safe Talk, with Altashot.

Nice opening, Altashot. :-)

Gordon
Just when you think you've learned it all, that is when you find you haven't learned anything yet.
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

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Location: Michigan

Post Sat Sep 28, 2013 5:26 pm

Re: Safe Talk, with Altashot.

(a little delayed I know... I somehow missed this post)

Nice!! I dunno if you could ask for a better scenario! 8 mins is an absolute KILL :)

Altashot wrote:....Because it is a wall safe, the dial is recessed in and doesn't have a comfortable turning knob like most, nope, it is a bar that spans the concave dial face. The motions are like that of turning a wing nut left and right on a bolt, not comfortable and motion wasting, but I could turn it with one finger which greatly reduced the wrist twists. So I started to manipulate....

I dunno if I've ever seen a dial like that. Seems like I have, but not sure. Anyway, I think I'm visualizing it right.

But you mentioned minimizing wrist action, which brought about a question--- When taking contact readings
(not just with this lock, but any) is it best to minimize wrist action & take readings mainly with your fingers?
I guess what I'm getting at is, what would you say is the best way is to maximize your sensitivity? Thanks.
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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Altashot

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Location: Western Canada

Post Sat Sep 28, 2013 9:39 pm

Re: Safe Talk, with Altashot.

Thank you GW.

Oldfast rose a good point on wrist movement. Manipulation can be hazardous. Sitting or kneeling on the ground, sometimes cross legged on the floor, or hunched over a floor safe... After a while, uncomfortable positions start to hurt, and when you get up it feels like you unfold rusty legs then you get the worse case of "pins and needles". You can't even wiggle a toe without having this feeling of agony.
I imagine that hobbyist are likely to sit on a good chair or the sofa to manipulate, but in the field, it's always in the darkest places, in the dirtiest sticky floors, under a counter or right next to a heating vent...But sometimes it's in a nice office where you get to sit in the Boss' luxurious leather chair...While he watches...
I carry a pneumatic stool, a soda plastic crate and the "As seen on TV, Pocket Chair"
Whatever you do, make sure to be as comfortable as possible.

As for wrist motion, I believe in "economy of motions". I can turn my wrist Right as far as I can, grip the dial between my thumb and index and spin Left while rolling the dial off my index and on my middle finger then my ring and little fingers and complete my wrist motion as far L as I can. Then I can reverse the action starting at my little finger and back to the R.
This allows me to more than double the rotation and speed of the wrist alone. To feel for contact points, I normally grasp the dial so that they are within the most "neutral" position of my wrist and fingers. Then I use my fingers and a tiny wrist rotation. I rely on my wrist "memory" to be able to move L and R incrementally, like 2 numbers per arc of rotation but I also include my fingers and their "memory" to also move in 2 steps...Combining the fingers and wrist 2 step "memories" I can work my way around the dial without having to let it go and re-grasp. All for economy.
Years of turning screwdrivers and spinning dials thought me this method. A long term side effect of excessive twisting and possibly lack of due care, leads to cracking painful wrists. It's embarrassing at times when my wrist crack in rhythm with every rotation...With it's crescendo and decrescendo, you can hum a tune to it...

Care must be taken, this is a repetitive motion and a "occupational hazard" that can cause problems later.

As for sensitivity, I press my fingers against a "sharp" edge. The corner of where the top, side and front of the safe meet is good. The corner of a table or the tip of a screwdriver works too...I press each of my finger tips in several places until it just hurts...Not pain, just, just hurts. Try it! Then touch something. -Not yourself!- It'll make your finger tips very "aware".

M.
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

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Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2011 9:16 am

Location: Michigan

Post Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:34 am

Re: Safe Talk, with Altashot.

Oh wow! A wonderfully detailed wording of an explanation... much more than I even hoped for!
Things like this excite me. Like little gold nuglets of knowledge you simply won't get from a book.
I very much appreciate you sharing, and the the time it takes to put into words that will convey it.

So a couple of the things you mentioned helped to confirm I'm on the right track with some of
the things I already do.... I just have to continue doing them to improve/refine my technique.

You also made mention of a couple things that I'd never even thought of.
I will most certainly begin incorporating them into my game immediately!

And you're so right about the "finger & wrist memory". I'm glad you touched on that.
There's definitely mind/muscle memory at play here... spacial reasoning, if you will.
For anyone hoping to speed up their game, one of the first things you want to do is settle on a consistant way of spinning the dial.
If you're always letting go of and regripping the dial, the rotational distances are constantly changing... your mind cannot keep up.
Continuous contact with the dial will keep these rotational distances relatively close, & your mind will eventually begin committing
them to memory. After awhile, I found myself spending more time spinning and far less time actually tracking #'s around the dial.

Altashot wrote:....A long term side effect of excessive twisting and possibly lack of due care, leads to cracking painful wrists. It's embarrassing at times when my wrist crack in rhythm with every rotation...With it's crescendo and decrescendo, you can hum a tune to it...

Geez...lol... that sucks. But at the same time, I couldn't help but laugh as I imagined you with someone lookin' over your shoulder. lol

Thanks again Altashot!
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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Altashot

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Location: Western Canada

Post Wed Nov 13, 2013 5:57 pm

Re: Safe Talk, with Altashot.

I haven't posted here for a while...I didn't abandon this thread...
Life took a weird turn...Between work, courses, a convention, a wedding, a bout of illness and a concert, among other things, I've been busy.
That being said, things are calming down right now and I should be able to keep up with it a little more.

-This one is the rebuild of that little JJ Taylor I open this thread with. Remember that little green one on the first post?...
I finally got around to repairing it. A seemingly simple job that turned to a little more than expected. As always I had a good time fixing it and it only took about 3 hours altogether over a period of a week. I sold it 3 days after completing the repairs.
It was still in the back of the shop; I hadn't made room on the showroom floor for it yet. Those cute little antique safes normally
sell pretty fast. He was the first customer to see it and he took right away.

http://s1155.photobucket.com/user/Altashot/story/64531

M.
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CPT1911

Familiar Face

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Location: Texas

Post Thu Nov 14, 2013 9:22 am

Re: Safe Talk, with Altashot.

Mind = Blown

Thanks Altashot and Oldfast for the discussion of finger sensitivity, keeping contact with the dial, rotational memory stuff, etc...

I love reading about this.
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Altashot

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Location: Western Canada

Post Thu Nov 14, 2013 7:49 pm

Re: Safe Talk, with Altashot.

I've been spinning dials for almost 20 years.
Stick around, next "talk" is on a direct entry lock on a small fire safe...
Glad you're having a good time.

M.
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Altashot

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Posts: 424

Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:32 pm

Location: Western Canada

Post Sun Nov 17, 2013 3:03 pm

Re: Safe Talk, with Altashot.

As promised, we will now look at a different type of manipulation. This one is an open gate combination lock, also known as a direct entry. A small fire resistant safe branded Crown, picked up for free. I was not familiar with this brand but it looked like many other inexpensive Chinese safes. A label on the right side of the safe, one I couldn't read, confirmed it's origin. Because the fence is attached to the bolt work and interacts directly with the wheel pack, we are not looking for left and right contacts points nor the narrowing gate signature as with a 6700 series for example. Instead, we are looking at the movement of the bolt work. It's minute differences in levels of penetration of the wheel pack are measured by observing the bolt retraction mechanism. Whether it be turning a handle or a key, we want to measure their rotation.
I took lots of pictures and wrote a story explaining the procedure.

http://s1155.photobucket.com/user/Altashot/story/65093

Man, I love what I do, always fun.

M.
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