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Safe Talk, with Altashot.

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Altashot

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Location: Western Canada

Post Sun Dec 13, 2015 9:54 pm

Re: Safe Talk, with Altashot.

Coring the wall was not easy by any means,
the guys started the night before. At a rate of about 1" per hour,
it took a long time. It took 1000's of gallons of water (which they had to suck up with a shop-vac which in turn needed to be emptied often) and they wrecked
2 hole saws when they hit the rebars, 2 layers of them.
They were soaked and visibly exhausted. One of them confided that he'd never core another vault...
Too hard on the tools he said, but really, I think it was also to hard on the body...
they were not expecting the concrete to be this hard. Normal concrete
would have taken only minutes to drill through, but this one...Hours.
In any case, the door is the weakest point of a vault.

M.
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LocksportSouth

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Post Sun Dec 13, 2015 10:02 pm

Re: Safe Talk, with Altashot.

Woah! Thanks for the insight, I guess if it were easy then it wouldn't be specced for a vault :D. I guess I just didn't pick up on the time/effort from the original post. Thanks again! Cool stuff.
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

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Post Mon Dec 14, 2015 2:21 am

Re: Safe Talk, with Altashot.

Now there's some images someone like me doesn't get to see too often!

Very cool. Thanks Alta! Always get excited when this thread pops up :spinning:
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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relic

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Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2016 1:56 am

Location: Manitoba, Canada

Post Mon Jan 18, 2016 3:14 am

Re: Safe Talk, with Altashot.

Hello Altshot! My first post here, just registered because I found your post below on a website search and hope you can help me out. Looking for the manufacturer and part number for the dial and ring on the safe you have here. I have asked for help on another forum and SG D023 was suggested for the dial. Local locksmiths don't agree with that id. Hope you you can help me out!

A safe I have is missing the dial cap, and since I don't know who made it I'm have trouble buying a replacement, hopefully the book you mention below might have the answer.

http://imgur.com/iHDHjom
2
http://imgur.com/dRieZbq
3
http://imgur.com/gYV9BZG


I have actually read your whole thread, you have had some interesting experiences, thanks for sharing


Altashot wrote:This one is a Chubb-Mosler and Taylor. Directly read from the serial number, it was made in 1970. According to
the book, it weighs 3195 pounds. It takes a lot of force to lift that one on the pallet jack. The pallet jack doesn't like it either, It moans and cracks upon lifting and the tiniest pebble on the concrete floor brings it to a stop. It takes all of my 200 pounds to get it moving and a trip near the floor sump, where the floor drainage slope is at it's greatest, got a little scary. The pallet jack twisted and the front right fork wheel came off the ground. I'm just glad the momentum got it passed the drain without tipping over and taking the pallet jack with it...Anything around it would have got hurt...

It was just a simple "service, clean, lube" but it needed parts: a handle and it's spindle. I found both, but the spindle was too long. A little tooling spin on the lathe fixed that. The handle had what I though was dried-out yellowed transparent tape on it...After cleaning, I soon realized that the yellowed tape was in fact brass...where the nickle plating had come off...Damn... The safe was once half-in, half-out of a wall. The front was in the office and had been painted blue, and the back was in a storage room and was left original dark grey. It was dry walled in and had a lot of "mud"on it to show that. It needed a paint job badly. Deep gouges on the top and sides needed filling too, so I mixed up a batch of Bondo. I must add that I hate Bondo (not the Brand, just the nature of that type of filler). It stinks up the shop and I hate to be rushed to apply it because it hardens so damn fast. I hate the sanding and and I hate the dust. I even hate that it's pink...And I'm colorblind...That being said, I painted the safe to look like it is supposed to look like, but my colour rendition failed me a little here as I was told that my greys are not quite what Chubb used, a little too light. Oh well, I like it. You may have noticed that I refer to the safe as a"Chubb" and not a "Chubb-Mosler and Taylor" That is because this safe "screams" Chubb, it looks nothing like a JJ Taylor or a Mosler, I guess that by 1970, Chubb's design prevailed and the other 2 really cease to exist...

http://s1155.photobucket.com/user/Altashot/slideshow/CMT

M.
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Riyame

Keeper of the Bests / Supreme Overlord of Small Format Interchangeable Picking Nightmares

Posts: 2010

Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2011 5:16 pm

Location: Canada

Post Mon Jan 18, 2016 4:18 am

Re: Safe Talk, with Altashot.

Looking into my 1956 S&G catalog it would appear that is D29 BP. They may or may not still have them available and the designation may have changed over time. The important thing to remember is yours is for a special type of spindle and not one that is already attached to the dial.

Click a couple times to be brought to the image page so you can zoom in if needed.
Image
Image
PhoneMan: I always knew I'd say something stupid and it would be someone's sig
macgng: i am an equal opportunity pervert
macgng: aww fuck thats goin in someone sig :-(

If life gives you melons, you might be dyslexic.
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escher7

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Post Mon Jan 18, 2016 8:57 am

Re: Safe Talk, with Altashot.

Are all relockers designed so that once they trip you have to drill the safe?
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relic

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Location: Manitoba, Canada

Post Tue Jan 19, 2016 3:29 am

Re: Safe Talk, with Altashot.

Thanks for the quick reply Riyame, much appreciated. Now I know what to ask / search for.
I wish I would have found this Site sooner!
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Altashot

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Posts: 419

Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2012 2:32 am

Location: Western Canada

Post Tue Jan 26, 2016 10:53 pm

Re: Safe Talk, with Altashot.

A big Chubb-Mosler and Taylor.

This thing was shipped from about 500 kms away (300 miles) to me to open/repair/refurbish.
No one in the area where it was from would/could do it.
It was found in the back of a long abandoned warehouse. The new owner cleaned the place out to make room
for their new business and behind a pile of junk, they found it, on it's back.

It arrived to me upright and strapped down on a pallet.
The handle was broken off and both dials were hard to turn.
I tried lubing them and they loosened up a bit, but not enough to feel the contact points.
Sargent and Greenleaf 6500 series vault locks are hard enough to manipulate in the first place, 4 wheels and geared over...
...And being that hard to turn...I drilled it. I had already quoted the client $4000.00 to open/repair/refurbish, I wasn't
going to spend much time trying to manipulate it.

There was already a hole in the back, possibly for alarm wires but, upon peeking in there,
I realized that it had inner compartments and that I was looking at the back of the inner door.
This was not going to work so I drilled it from the top. Knowing was I was dealing with, I knew where to poke through.
I drilled though the first layer of steel with a standard bit. Although, it's pretty hard steel, enough force does it. I knew that passed the steel, there would be
some kind of concrete but what I was not expecting, was ceramic. In the concrete itself, some kind of ceramic was used as an aggregate.
I had heard of it but had never seen it myself. Yeah, it's hard. It chews your bits up pretty quickly but I got through. I had heard that the ceramic was a real bit*h to drill.
It wasn't, not to my standards anyhow. Yeah, it's hard, but I drilled hardplate before so, I didn't thing much of it.
Then I changed my drill bit back to standard bit I started with, and broke through the inner steel shell.

Then it was just a matter of inserting my scope with the little 45 degree angled mirror attachment to decipher both comb locks.
Easy. Only took 2 hours so far. I put a big pair of locking plyers on what was left of the handle spindle and turned it.
I pulled, and pulled harder and...Nothing, that door wouldn't open. I check for a gap beneath the door and there wasn't one.
Ok then, the door needs to be raised, so I went to turn the adjustment screw under the bottom hinge block and found
that the hinge pivot had been cut off. Both top and bottom hinge pins were cut off. I hadn't noticed that at first because however cut them did such a good job.
They cut off the pins with a zip disc and took such great care that they never nicked anything else. The gaps was barely wider than a zip disc is thick.
I have to raise my hat to the steady handed person that cut those off.

Now I needed to tell the customer that it would cost an additional $1000.00 to repair.
He agreed. So, I threw the bolts, so the door wouldn't fall out and kill someone, and removed the hinge blocks to remove the cut off hinge pivots, fabricated new ones on the lathe and re-installed them.
Now the door could be opened. There were 4 compartments inside but only 2 had locks on them and only the 2nd one was locked. I drilled that one too because the client
only wanted the top one to work. There was nothing inside that compartment.

I removed the back panel, took out the broken handle spindle and spun a new one on the lathe, found a used handle, tested it, and gutted the inside.
I removed all but the top compartment door and also removed the now unused hinges. It was to be completely refurbished so I pinned and welded to hole I made
and used Bondo to repair all scratches and dents, sanded, primed and painted. I used a beige colour inside, and black outside.
Before I painted the outside, I lightly sprayed it with Gravel Guard. It's an automotive product that makes a rubbery textured finish.
I like to use this finish because it leaves a texture that hides imperfections well and is also pleasing to the eyes and the touch.

I service everything and repacked it.
Here it is, completed and ready for pick up.
The pictures should be right side up if you click on them.
DSC03652.JPG

DSC03673.JPG

DSC03671.JPG

DSC03675.JPG

DSC03674.JPG

the customer was very pleased. It now resides in the FRONT of his shop.

M.
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

Posts: 4142

Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2011 3:16 pm

Location: Michigan

Post Wed Jan 27, 2016 12:59 am

Re: Safe Talk, with Altashot.

BEAUTIFUL!!! Love the extra step to get that textured look.

The hinges and how they were cut was very odd.
Well, maybe not odd... but certainly interesting.
I'm glad you noticed it and didn't get hurt!

They dials on the inside - also S&G's?
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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Jaakko Fagerlund

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Posts: 344

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Location: Finland

Post Wed Jan 27, 2016 5:15 pm

Re: Safe Talk, with Altashot.

escher7 wrote:Are all relockers designed so that once they trip you have to drill the safe?

Essentially yes. There are two types of relockers: ones that can be pulled back from the cable or whatever it is connected with and the ones that have a relocker in them, as in once fired, it locks in place. The former needs a hole in a proper place to grap the wire for pulling it or drilling the relocker, the latter always requires drilling the relocker. Unless, of course, there's a large enough hole in the safe already that you can utilise and get to the lockworks, but then again that's not a safe anymore :)
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Altashot

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Posts: 419

Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2012 2:32 am

Location: Western Canada

Post Thu Jan 28, 2016 5:53 am

Re: Safe Talk, with Altashot.

Yes, they are S and G, 6730's.
The visual appearance of the texture is only one aspect, most people comment on the feel.

Cut hinges is not that odd, I've seen it many times, and...It doesn't work...
Always makes me shake my head...Like no one EVER though of that before...As if the door was just gonna pop!
Anyways, I noticed when I pulled on my vise grip handle, in the corner of my eye, I saw the top right corner move...
The door was not about to fall out since it's thickness would not clear the frame, but it had me worried.
I threw the bolts, taped the dials in their unlocked positions and call the client.

The thing is though, that they were cut so neatly, such precise cuts. I've seen many
safe that had been hacked and butchered, but this, it was skillfully done.
Futile, but beautiful in it's own right.

M.
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Altashot

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Posts: 419

Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2012 2:32 am

Location: Western Canada

Post Sat Feb 20, 2016 10:08 pm

Re: Safe Talk, with Altashot.

I had to open an old JJ Taylor the other day.
The Pawn Shop owner told me that he unlocked the combination but the handle won't turn...
I worked on his safe before and I had a pretty good idea of the problem.
It was made to be dynamite resistant and had bolts on all 4 sides of the door, 3 on the hinge side, 3 on the
latch side and 2 on the top and bottom. The 2 top and the 2 bottom a gear driven off the horizontal bolts.
What happens is that as it wears, the bolt disconnect from the gears and the cogs no longer line up, thus, jamming the bolt work.
I rattled the door with the pressure bar handle and the bolt work handle and finally got it opened. It took about an hour.
Not sure how old the safe is but I think it;s from the 20's. No parts are available for this safe so I had to remove the gears and bolts.
It must have failed before because someone had already removed the top 2 bolts and gears and sadly, I had to do the same with the bottom bolts.
Oh well, this thing is old and nearing the end of it's service life so I figured I'd give it a chance and extend it's life by removing the faulty parts.
I took a few pictures with my phone to share them with you.

Enjoy

Outside,
Image

Inside,
Image
The timelock, S and G, no longer in use. It's huge, notice the 6" ruler on top of it.
Image
The upper lock. Again, this is huge, 4 1/4" X 6 1/8". JJ Taylor original.
Image
Inside it, in the unlocked position.
Image
In the locked position. Notice the roller on the cam, it raises a lever which in turns raises the fence lever so you can'r feel the CP's.
manipulation resistant.
Image
And the 2 bolts and gears I had to remove.
Image

beautiful safe!

M.
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Riyame

Keeper of the Bests / Supreme Overlord of Small Format Interchangeable Picking Nightmares

Posts: 2010

Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2011 5:16 pm

Location: Canada

Post Sat Feb 20, 2016 10:26 pm

Re: Safe Talk, with Altashot.

Holy crap! That is a beautiful safe. I am drooling over those S&G locks and time lock. Hopefully you get the call if they decides to get rid of it :P
PhoneMan: I always knew I'd say something stupid and it would be someone's sig
macgng: i am an equal opportunity pervert
macgng: aww fuck thats goin in someone sig :-(

If life gives you melons, you might be dyslexic.
<<

Oldfast

User avatar

OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

Posts: 4142

Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2011 3:16 pm

Location: Michigan

Post Sat Feb 20, 2016 10:32 pm

Re: Safe Talk, with Altashot.

Pressure bar... I'm assuming this is the bar running horizontally across the door about midway
and has a vertical handle on it to the far left? Would you elaborate on the purpose they serve?

And naturally my favorite part was the pictures of the locks. So glad you shared!! Simply exquisite!!

Was going to ask about the ornamental arm... but you confirmed my suspicions with the next sentence...
Altashot wrote:In the locked position. Notice the roller on the cam, it raises a lever which in turns raises the fence lever so you can'r feel the CP's.
manipulation resistant.

Which begs the question (c'mon now, someone's gotta ask! lol)....
Given all the time in the world, could YOU manipulate this possibly?
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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keymaster1053

Active Member

Posts: 420

Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2011 12:45 am

Location: Boston, Mass.

Post Sun Feb 21, 2016 8:15 am

Re: Safe Talk, with Altashot.

Oldfast wrote:Pressure bar... I'm assuming this is the bar running horizontally across the door about midway
and has a vertical handle on it to the far left? Would you elaborate on the purpose they serve?

And naturally my favorite part was the pictures of the locks. So glad you shared!! Simply exquisite!!

Was going to ask about the ornamental arm... but you confirmed my suspicions with the next sentence...
Altashot wrote:In the locked position. Notice the roller on the cam, it raises a lever which in turns raises the fence lever so you can'r feel the CP's.
manipulation resistant.

Which begs the question (c'mon now, someone's gotta ask! lol)....
Given all the time in the world, could YOU manipulate this possibly?


Oldfast, notice in picture one the hinge isn't mounted on the door on the "hinge side"? it's mounted in the center of the door, with a double hinge assembly. the pressure bar in the center pulls the door straight out towards you when the bolts are retracted, before you can swing it open. and pushes the door in evenly when closing it before throwing the bolts. This is usually done on doors that are so thick, a conventional hinge just wouldn't work. the door would bind on the "latch side" before it would clear it's own body.
Just my two cents.
:)
Jim
(20:10:59) Blacky: oki
(20:18:08) MBI: Me working for the CIA is about as likely as you working in the Middle East.
(20:19:01) Riyame: lol
(20:19:05) Riyame: he is in dubai
(20:19:26) MBI rescinds his previous comment
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