A question of ethics in marketing

[abroxis]

Assume for a moment that there is a very accomplished lockpicker / keybumper .

They arrange to give a security talk to a bunch of tenants in a large highrise apt building.
discussing usefull information that any locksmith or police department would consider excellent for tenants to known.

In exchange for the free talk they are premitted to do a bit of a demonstration and sell some stuff.

They demonstrate how easy it is to keybump the model of locks in that building and offer to retrofit their locks to make them
more bump resistant.

Would this be considered unethical fearmongering or acceptable sales promotion.

[Solomon]

I'm gonna go with fearmongering. Lock bumping is more difficult to master than so many people make it out to be, it's also more time consuming and less reliable than the more traditional methods of entry. Yes, some locks bump open much easier than others... and if you practice enough, you can get very good at it. But even then, not every lock wants to play ball, and when you break into houses for a living you don't want something that works quickly sometimes - you want something that works quickly and reliably EVERY time. Bump keys just don't provide that sense of security.

Think about it a little more. The repeated rapping sound, while not the loudest noise in the world, is still loud enough to be heard from open windows either side of the house (or by anyone who might be walking along across the street). While most neighbours couldn't care less about what's happening next door, you'd expect a certain level of paranoia to take over when a person is trying to break into someone elses house so they really don't want to be taking any unnecessary chances. The short, sharp crack of a window being forced open is much preferred to the tak-tak-tak of a bump key. Reason being it takes no skill, no practice, and no filing down keys which might have to be thrown away either - and it works every time, in the same amount of time, guaranteed.

In short, burglars want in as quickly and quietly as possible, and they don't want maybes. You wouldn't modify a blank firing revolver, test it extensively, then only load it with 3 rounds in random chambers to go into a firefight. Not when you have the option of buying an AR for the same price.

[the lockpickkid]

I think it is sort of unethical. I work in a lumber yard and hardware store for instance, we sell Schlage and Kwikset locksets, I get questions all the time about them, because I am dubbed "the lock guy" I can't tell the customers how crappy a Kwikset is, because we are in the business of selling locks and hardware. Same type of deal.

[sandman]

I think it is sort of unethical. I work in a lumber yard and hardware store for instance, we sell Schlage and Kwikset locksets, I get questions all the time about them, because I am dubbed "the lock guy" I can't tell the customers how crappy a Kwikset is, because we are in the business of selling locks and hardware. Same type of deal.

there is no doubt that putting fear into somebody to make a profit for yourself is questionable. but its what business is.

the reason Lockpickkid doesnt tell anyone why kwikset sucks is because its his very own product that he has to sell. i guarantee, since i worked in a hardware store for 2 years myself, he is under a little pressure no to suggest better, or cheaper products that may exist in another local hardware store. cause that would cause competition.
not ASSUMING somebody knows of a better deal, but doesnt tell the customer about it, for sake that he keeps the sale in house, is called BUSINESS!

BUSINESS IS BUSINESS! thats where the term comes from. there are very few ethics involved with business. the only ethics in business are based around the Laws of the country there within. It is not against the law to tell somebody something they have sucks, so buy mine. that is buisiness.

LOOK AROUND YOU, LOOK AT EVERYTHING YOU HAVE, LOOK AT YOUR SMOKE DETECTOR, YOUR MICROWAVE, YOU BED, YOUR WINDOWS, YOUR CAR, YOUR GUNS, YOUR TV, WHAT YOUR WATCHING ON TV, all of these things are bought with the idea that they are better, and a vast majority of these are bought because you had a small bit of fear that going with out that product, or going with a different product would make you feel unsafe, or not happy.


as locksmiths, since we are all emotionaly invested into the people we provide a service to, YES, IT IS UNMORAL TO PUT FEAR INTO GOOD PEOPLE JUST TO MAKE A PROFIT. this is why im not a 24/7 locksmith, in colorado, they are all scam artists, and arent doing good for our industry at all. they give locksmith a bad reputation and so is this man.

HOWEVER

outside of the locksmith industry, this man IS doing those people in the siminar a good favor for helping them realize possible security risks.

its on them wether they want to spend the money to better their security or not. they arent being suckered into buying anything, just being informed, NO DIFFERENT THAN A TV COMMERCIAL TALKING ABOUT SAFETY RATINGS ON A NEW CAR COMPARED TO OLDER CARS. let me repeat this.

NO DIFFERENT THAN A TV COMMERCIAL TALKING ABOUT SAFETY RATINGS ON A NEW CAR COMPARED TO OLDER CARS!!!!!

its unethical to put down somebody else, put fear in your clients to make a buck, BUT THATS HOW BUSINESS IS DONE!


so yes, i agree its unethical, but I wouldnt be against doing it myself, because in the long run, your not selling a crapy product, you are selling a product that make people safer! so you, in the end, are helping the customer.



if Lockpickkid told his customers, "WELL THIS IS ACTUALY A VERY CRAPY LOCK, THE SCHLAGE IS A BETTER LOCK THAN THIS BUT SINCE THEY STARTED MAKING THEM IN MEXICO, THE QUALITY HAS GONE WAY DOWN, IF YOUR LOOKING FOR A GOOD LOCK, THAT WONT LET YOU DOWN, BUT IT WILL COST YOU ABOUT TWICE THE PRICE OF THIS HERE LOCK, YOUR GOING TO HAVE TO CONSIDER SOMETHING WITH A HIGHER SECURITY RATING AND WE JUST DONT CARRY THAT HERE. MAY I SUGGEST THE LOCKSMITH DOWN THE STREET, HE'LL BE ABLE TO ANSWER ALL YOUR QUESTIONS AND HELP YOU FIND SOMETHING YOU ARE LOOKING FOR."....

THEN THAT WOULD NOT BE GOOD FOR BUSINESS!!!!!!!!!!!!

its just business fellas, just business. relax. as long has none of us are TAKING money away from our clients, or doing questionable work on their locks just to get the job done quicker, then profiting off of marketing higher security locks is fine within reason.


much respect to you lockpickkid. im sure your a great hardware store manager that helps everyone with everything they need. i have no doubt about the way you sell your product, that you also help people as well, and that you inform them of positives and negatives of the product. im sure your a good salesman but a very moral and ethical one at that.

i ment no disrespect in using you for my little rant here, just used your SITUATION as an example. your the coolest mo fo i know!!!!!!!

[eeze]

Rubbish!!! . it is not unethical and it is definately not fearmongary to inform people of the fact that because of some idiots who want to make money buy selling bump keys that exploit a serious design flaw in nearly all pin tumbler locks that they are in danger.
youtube and other such sites are full of videos showing the use and construction of bumpkeys.
your average crook does not know advanced entry methods but they do know the bumpkey,
the bumpkey with practice is very efficient this is why it is such a big problem,
i personaly inform my customers that security should be a complete package,
they should not install a high security lock on a door that has non security glass panels,
as it is easier and quieter for me to break the glass and gain entry than any other form of forced entry.
so long as you are explaining to them the theory of complete alround security,
then your are providing a service and as any tradesman when you provide a service then it is not unethical to want to be paid.
also i allways tell my customers exactly what level of security a lock provides, if it is shit then it's shit.
if you sell shit and they get broken into then they will blame you for selling shit,
but if you tell them that their lock is shit then when they get broken into they will blame themselves for not listening to you.

[xeo]

Acceptable sales promotion

[HallisChalmers]

It's no different than pitching a George Foreman grill.....if that's how you want to be thought of....

[virul]

Its only unethical if the sales person knows they're lying or talking bullshit to make someone more afraid than they need to be. I think alot of people don't have a clue how shitty their front door locks are. And its not like they have to be sold a €300 super lock, a good sales person will help someone find somehting within their budget.

[xeo]

It's unethical to not tell people their locks can be opened in .001 milliseconds by an 11 year old with a hammer and key. Locks, like most other products, come with false claims and illusions of security. If the public truly knew the truth, these shitty lock makers would be driven completely out of business unless they sold higher quality products. But, since companies like to deceive people, why would you consider yourself "unethical" when you're telling people the truth?

[locksyth]

In a way it is unethical. You can show how easily a bump key can open their door, and sell a service to key the locks better,but if you neglect to show them that the door can be shimmed open faster and silently,then you are creating an unreasonable fear. You also are neglecting to provide accurate information. The vast majority of break-ins are through an unlocked door or window. The lockset may be crap,but being locked is the biggest deterrent. Show how easily it can be shimmed open and rake in money on deadbolts! Provide all the info and it's just good sales.