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Need advice: special lock needed to prevent child abuse

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Protecting Kids

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Post Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:51 am

Need advice: special lock needed to prevent child abuse

(*used to help protect children from abuse).
I have a unique situation where I need a (special?) lock. Any suggestions are truly appreciated. I will provide an explanation for the needed lock and the criteria needed;
Explanation: need a basement to be lockable when no one is around as it is a rented space but…
I need to make sure no one can enter the space and lock the door behind them so that others cannot get in. if someone gets locked in by mistake (fire hazard) then the door must be able to be opened/unlocked from the inside. *lastly, the locking mechanism must not allow someone to lock the door while it is open and then close it behind them so that they are able to work around the lack of an interior locking mechanism.
The simpler and less expensive the better as the lock does not need to be super strong since the space is inside a building.
*Bonus-Issue: I know devices can be placed on the interior of doors to make them seem like they are locked or that achieve the same thing as a lock so if anyone has a suggestion on how to eliminate that issue then I am all ears. Example:
https://www.amazon.com/Rishon-Enterpris ... 2396&psc=1
or
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33MuGjZ6c-w

The reason we need this is because child molesters have used similar spaces to corner children and when others try to enter the space, they can’t and assume the space is locked-up or empty, thinking it is not in use. The space has many rooms off it and blind spots so a simple window in the door will not protect against this. A special lock is just the start of many steps taken to prevent abuse.
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Visitor

Familiar Face

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Post Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:28 am

Re: Need advice: special lock needed to prevent child abuse

You need to call a professional locksmith to come and do the full job.
Stop penny pinching on such an important issue and get it done properly.
Trying to do it yourself or asking a group of non professionals for advice is asking for trouble further down the line.

You don't say where in the world you are, there are different regulations and codes required, you already mention fire situations so this needs to be right. There will be insurance requirements as well.
A lock that can be locked or unlocked from the outside and only unlocked from the inside is doable but I don't want to advise further in case your perception of my advice is incorrect and a child ends up getting hurt.
If you were near me I could do it but we don't know where you are from your post.
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Protecting Kids

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Post Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:54 pm

Re: Need advice: special lock needed to prevent child abuse

Visitor; Famililure face:

This isn't a matter of my desire to penny pinch. unfortunately i have to convince a church board in order to make any changes to the space and politics make all decisions problematic. This is a VERY important issue to me and i want it done properly but a lock of this nature will be a short term "fix" that i will pay for (supplies) and have a locksmith install/ carpenter (possibly a professional volunteering their time) . so that i can do the change without permission from the board (only need permission from the person overseeing the space)... if i have to hire a professional to do a long term fix that is costly, then i will have to write up a proposal, get votes, convince board members how important it is, figure out budget, etc.. basically this will take a WHILE if i have to involve them. just like government, church boards are slow and in that time frame kids are vulnerable. While this lock is installed, i will be working with the board on a series of long term solutions, including a better lock/system as needed, since protecting kids from child molesters is a multifaceted issue and just replacing 1 lock is not going to stop this from happening.
I know that this forum has all levels of locksmiths, some professional and many not.. but i would rather get input from a large community instead of just being told by local businesses that they don't have a solution. i guess you could say i am in the research phase, but i am trying to expedite it so that this change can be made as soon as possible. I am a below federal poverty individual so cost is an issue but i am very determined and will do what it takes to make these changes happen, even if i have to negotiate with 100s of businesses, raise money, etc.
Regardless of cost, i ask people to be realistic with me and if a short term 'fix' or even a long term one can not be achieved with these circumstances then i will try to find an alternative solution (i don't give up easily).

LOCATION: Fayette County, Kentucky

Building: the basement is at the bottom of a stairwell that also has a fire escape next to it (outside the basement door), the basement door opens up to a large space that is located on the ground floor and has several emergency exits and entrances/exits throughout the space. The emergency exits and doors throughout the space are lockable but the main entrance is where it is important to implement this locking mechanism.

as for insurance requirements i am willing to call their insurance company and ask (again will add a delay to the change) but in all honesty i don't understand why i would need to follow their guidelines if the current door already has a lock on the door.
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Protecting Kids

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Post Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:09 pm

Re: Need advice: special lock needed to prevent child abuse

the closest thing i have found is listed below. the only concern i have is, is if someone was able to use a key to lock the door from the outside while the door is open and then swing the door shut, taking the key with them and effectively locking the door while they are in the space?

https://www.doorhardwarecenter.com/hard ... d-handles/
Classroom:
Outside lever locked and unlocked by key. Inside lever always unlocked. Inside lever is always free for immediate egress.
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mdc5150

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Post Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:25 pm

Re: Need advice: special lock needed to prevent child abuse

Protecting Kids wrote:the closest thing i have found is listed below. the only concern i have is, is if someone was able to use a key to lock the door from the outside while the door is open and then swing the door shut, taking the key with them and effectively locking the door while they are in the space?

https://www.doorhardwarecenter.com/hard ... d-handles/
Classroom:
Outside lever locked and unlocked by key. Inside lever always unlocked. Inside lever is always free for immediate egress.

It sounds like you are over complicating the problem. So there is a lock there now. What stops someone on the inside from getting out?

A classroom function will still have the same ability to be locked from the outside and take the key with them inside the room.

Get the current key duplicated and put it in the key box or safe.
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Protecting Kids

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Post Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:12 pm

Re: Need advice: special lock needed to prevent child abuse

"It sounds like you are over complicating the problem. So there is a lock there now. What stops someone on the inside from getting out? "
--nothing is keeping someone from getting out and i need it to stay that way. (fire code)

"A classroom function will still have the same ability to be locked from the outside and take the key with them inside the room."
--yes, this is what i am trying to avoid. is it possible to have this type of lock/similar that does not allow this?

"Get the current key duplicated and put it in the key box or safe."
it currently is duplicated and in a key box safe but a determined person can either get on the church board/ 'infiltrate' the staff and get the code (has happened in the past) or get a key copy.

if i could just find a lock that can ONLY be locked when the door is shut but remain unlocked otherwise and of course remain unlocked from the inside just like a store room lever.

**i have talked to a few professionals with no luck.. everyone suggests we upgrade our security so that wrong people can't get the key but unfortunately in a church type of setting, as many have seen on the news, sometimes the priest, staff, church members or others that have legitimate access to a key, is an abuser. it definitely
is not an easy thing to protect against and of course we do not plan to only work on locks.. its just one step to make spaces less private.
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Josephus

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Location: Michigan

Post Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:07 pm

Re: Need advice: special lock needed to prevent child abuse

The description does not make sense. What is it, exactly, that you want?

Here is what we have so far:

You want a door lock that can't be "locked" when not closed "but remain unlocked otherwise."

You want a lock that can be opened from the inside.

You want no one to be able to enter the space and lock the door such that no one can get in from the outside.

You want to stop people with the ability to get a copy of the key from getting a copy of the key when they are of ill intent but also do not want to add security.


The first two can be satisfied with virtually any door lock save for a double deadbolt, assuming you find the door to be open sufficient to be called unlocked. The third is satisfied with an extra copy of the key, which you currently already have. The fourth: someone is going to need access to the key, and that someone will need to be trusted. What is the special consideration here? Even a privacy lock (a bathroom lock) would be sufficient. You want the space to be less private, so let it be less private.

Other alternatives with precise features such as the ability to lock the door if and only if the door itself is closed and prevent someone within the room from stopping access from outside and have the door lockable and unlockable when no one is within the room and added key management would require electric work, software, and remote management. The expense would be quite large for one door. Thousands. Plus there is no way for anyone to solve your problem of ensuring people with authority of ownership over access do not utilize that access if they are of ill intent. Hopes and prayers over locks and screws when intent-based access is needed.
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Protecting Kids

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Post Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:11 pm

Re: Need advice: special lock needed to prevent child abuse

The first 3 things you said is what is desired.. the last thing u said, erase that from your mind: quote: "You want to stop people with the ability to get a copy of the key from getting a copy of the key when they are of ill intent but also do not want to add security."
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Protecting Kids

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Post Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:12 pm

Re: Need advice: special lock needed to prevent child abuse

basically figured out what is needed and it will likely be a custom lock. another locksmith discussed it with me at length and this is what was suggested.
use an Interconnected or Emergency Egress Lock and a deadbolt blank (cover). remove the thumb turn interior plate and replace with a blank one.
for instance with this style:
http://www.directdoorhardware.com/Emtek ... dleset.htm
-remove the interior cover, thumb turn, etc. and replace with a partial blank (solid metal at the top and no opening for a thumb turn, effectively eliminating the ability to lock the door while inside. Also since it uses a deadbolt, someone can not use a key to lock the deadbolt while holding the door open and then shut it behind them.
+egress is built in so it is up to code and no one can accidentally get locked in.
-when someone is inside they can not lock the door behind them.
-only lockable when the door is shut and the person locking the door is outside (not in the basement).

IF ANYONE knows of a lock that is already made as described and does not need to be altered then i would love to learn what it is called or see a link.
Thank you for taking the time to look over this issue.

updated and hopefully clearer description:
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MartinHewitt

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Post Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:30 pm

Re: Need advice: special lock needed to prevent child abuse

I am really not sure I understand you. Probably due to different technology in the US and here.

Here are mortise locks available for emergency doors which unlock with the handle on the inside and can be opened with the handle from the outside if not locked. Into this mortise lock can be mounted a one sided Euro profile cylinder lock, so door can be locked only when closed from the outside. There are also mortise locks which can be always opened from the inside and the dead bolt locks automagically when the door is closed. To open from the outside it has to be unlocked with the key.
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt
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Protecting Kids

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Post Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:26 pm

Re: Need advice: special lock needed to prevent child abuse

thank you martin, yes i think the difference is between the us and europe but i am no expert of course. i will look into what u suggested.
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mdc5150

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Post Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:24 am

Re: Need advice: special lock needed to prevent child abuse

So with your new interconnected lock what prevents the wrong person from getting access to the spare key?
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Visitor

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Post Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:08 am

Re: Need advice: special lock needed to prevent child abuse

You want a fire escape push pad lock but you understand we can not advise you, if you go and fit or have somthing fitted on our suggestion and then a child gets hurt because of it we couldn't sleep at night.

The fire door next to it surely has the lock you want, a big pad on the inside so anyone can get out and a key lock on the outside so only wanted people can get in.

In the US your fire code will stop you from using anything bespoke I think.
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Protecting Kids

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Post Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:32 pm

Re: Need advice: special lock needed to prevent child abuse

Thank you for the info on the firepush pad. No need to worry about suggestions because I will run everything buy a local licensed lock Smith before moving forward.. I may even hire them to do the install. But..
Arnt these types of locks (push pad), easily lockable from the outside while the door is open & then automatically stays locked when it swings shut? The benefit of what I listed above is that if someone tried to lock the door while it was ajar then the door can not close because a deadbolt is stickong out, whereas what you are suggesting , I believe, has a latch that would allow the door to swing shut even after locked. Also, the lock I linked has egress built in (single turn of inside lever always unlocks the door & the deadbolt) effectively doing the same as a push pad fire escape door. Please correct me if I am wrong on any of this, as i am trying to as informed as possible. I truly appreciate everyone giving their time & though.

*as for the comment of "whats keeping someone from getting a spare"
-not much is stopping someone but I don't really care if someone gets a spare unless they were working with a child predator and they locked a child & predator inside from the outside & refused to let others from the outside in. Although, I suppose a scenario like this could occurs it is much less likley. If someone unlocks the door to steal stuff, with a spare key. although not desired, its a risk we can take. We just can't take the risk of a child molester cornering a child in this space & locking others out.
Of course we can't just leave the door unlocked since it is a rented space . there still needs to be a lock.. Unforrtunetly.
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Visitor

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Post Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: Need advice: special lock needed to prevent child abuse

If the door can be opened from the inside without a key then surely it's of no consequence whether the door is locked then slammed shut or not. Anyone getting locked in can get out. Relying on a part of the locking system to stop the door from closing is not the correct way of doing it and always results in a broken lock at some point.
The advantage of a fire pad is anyone can quickly and easily open the door without knowing how a lock system works.

You are going about this in the wrong way and you are going to find yourself skating thin ice depending how you proceed, you need to get a grasp of the gravity of this situation, I have a feeling you're not the person supposed to be doing this 'research' I find it hard to believe any official line of enquiry involves posting on a hobby picking forum before asking local experts and before asking your local authorities what codes your obliged to follow.
I just get the feeling you are doing this 'research' so you can go to the person who's job it actually is to sort this out and say I told you so, sort of thing.

Every place I've fitted locks for with children have specific guidelines that must be followed. I also have to be 'licensed' to do such work, not any tom dick or harry is allowed to do it.

You need your local locksmith to do this correctly and to code, if you don't your heading for trouble and anyone advising you is also open to issues.

Get it done properly, sorry if this post comes across too harsh but use your common sence, im sorry but that has to be my last word on this thread.
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