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Master keys and Locksmith ethics

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10ringo10

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Post Sun Apr 29, 2018 10:23 am

Master keys and Locksmith ethics

Having not sold master keys to the general public before this week - some online suppliers still have restrictions

Wondered just how many of you - share the restrictions view :geek: in todays world is a ethical locksmith

with high morals ... poorer than one with lower principles and could not give a shit attitude

is it bad ... to turn customers away ARE cabinets and lockers the same as A secure gated area in your view

locksmith tools are available just about ... everywhere is it a time for change in the profession



21B For garran series G
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whizdumb

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Post Sun Apr 29, 2018 11:30 am

Re: Master keys and Locksmith ethics

I'm not a locksmith, however, I'm of the mindset that I would not wish to aid and abet someone in accessing something that they shouldn't. Like you said, the equipment is readily available these days, however, the skills to use them are not abundant. This is precisely why locksmiths exist and therefore must be held to a higher standard than the general public when ethics are concerned. Locksmiths are, by many rights, a gate keeper of security; and with security, there must be inherent trust.

I'll suffice it to say that, if you were at all worried about competition or customers choosing to go with an non-ethical, non-reputable means to procure master keys, then say good riddance. You must ask yourself, Is that really the type of clientele that I wish to serve?
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jharveee

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Post Sun Apr 29, 2018 12:00 pm

Re: Master keys and Locksmith ethics

Sure glad I don't sell guns for a living. Not the same.......but, the key is just a tool, the responsibility should be placed on the person that uses it. Not the store that sells it. Like selling Cars to people that drink. I follow the manufactures restrictions. I also follow my gut. Ask for a letter of authorization to keep on file. These type of locks should not be the first line of security.(like a Gate or Entrance Door). Although they are often the sole defense in Public buildings protecting important areas. Private documents, Alarm panels, Credit card and account numbers.
Slippery Slope.
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10ringo10

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Post Sun Apr 29, 2018 12:08 pm

Re: Master keys and Locksmith ethics

[quote="whizdumb"]I'm not a locksmith, however, I'm of the mindset that I would not wish to aid and abet someone in accessing something that they shouldn't.

Reason why we stopped selling gaming machine keys years ago ... as they could easily be altered by criminals

but many suppliers kept selling them ... and I believe on the news last year - bandits steal cash with keys
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whizdumb

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Post Sun Apr 29, 2018 12:19 pm

Re: Master keys and Locksmith ethics

jharveee wrote:Sure glad I don't sell guns for a living. Not the same.......but, the key is just a tool, the responsibility should be placed on the person that uses it. Not the store that sells it. Like selling Cars to people that drink. I follow the manufactures restrictions. I also follow my gut. Ask for a letter of authorization to keep on file. These type of locks should not be the first line of security.(like a Gate or Entrance Door). Although they are often the sole defense in Public buildings protecting important areas. Private documents, Alarm panels, Credit card and account numbers.
Slippery Slope.



Valid point, however, as a counter argument, what if you were a dealer that sold cop cars or other emergency vehicles and a citizen wanted to come and purchase one with no reasoning or credentials. In that analogy, the item being requested is not merely a tool but a restricted piece of equipment with a particular use case. I would question that persons motive, even in the unlikely event that the person was totally legit and needed them for a movie prop or something. I totally agree that it shouldn't have to be up to the person selling restricted items to determine the intent of the person wanting to purchase them. But much like you "go with your gut" methodology, you can always trust but verify.
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Whizdumb81 wrote:You can't handle the DCAP
xe0 wrote:how about a peterson gov steel baseball bat so i can thwap motherfuckers
ecksdee wrote:To learn to pick locks is to learn how to speak a language spoken only in whispers and riddles.

http://www.youtube.com/user/HobbyPicker
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10ringo10

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Post Sun Apr 29, 2018 12:33 pm

Re: Master keys and Locksmith ethics

Criminals will always find away - after Finding & reading the article about the gaming bandits actually back in 2015

A engineer from the gaming machine company said

The keys found had been adapted and I quote " keys for them can only be obtained from certain locksmiths "

slippy slope and a difference of opinion beginning already on topic
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mdc5150

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Post Sun Apr 29, 2018 2:55 pm

Re: Master keys and Locksmith ethics

My personal take on this is in line with the company I work for.

If you have an ID and a business card, or a letter on company letterhead we will put you on file to make keys. Other than that it's a no.

I have also refused to make keys for people with an I.D. because I knew they were lying to me. I had a guy come in with an Everest C124 key which is unusual in our area. It also had a master key system number on it like AB23. I asked him what that key went to and he told me it was for his condo. I asked him where his condo was at and the area he told me was in an all industrial area. I told him no and told him not to come into our shop again. He got really mad raving about how he had an I.D. etc but his I.D. address was for another city.
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MartinHewitt

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Post Sun Apr 29, 2018 3:54 pm

Re: Master keys and Locksmith ethics

In Germany being a locksmith does not prove much more than an I.D.. Anybody can go to the office, fill in a form and bang, he is a locksmith. It does only prove that he has enough interest in the subject (legal or illegal) to do the paper work to be a locksmith. I believe there are indeed quite some crooks in this business in Germany. We also have these door opening mafia. There is also a locksmith from my city who shows in his locksmith youtube channel fake lock picking. Unlocks a DOM iX Saturn with visible pins with the key. While mounting the lock he turns it around. This side as no visible pins and is "picked" by him with two paper-clips in no time.

I think it is a good idea to not sell something when you have a bad feeling. That doesn't matter if it is a master key, an AR-15, a kitchen knife, a bottle of wine or a toothpick. But sometimes really trivial or really useful stuff is not sold. Really trivial stuff are IMHO the 2-in-1 picks. It doesn't need much skill to make them and photos how they generally look are available everywhere. Not as easy to build, but not a secret either, is a make-up key. It would be useful to convert a key to a combination.
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt
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Josephus

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Post Mon Apr 30, 2018 6:07 pm

Re: Master keys and Locksmith ethics

Restriction systems only work well if everyone follows them. They do work better the more people participate.

Often being ethical necessitates altruism where people that behave well are at a disadvantage. Theoretically in the long-term everyone benefits from self-sacrificial choices.

But all that stuff does not necessarily matter. You are you and that means you have to make a choice you are comfortable with in the end. It's not illegal and consumers are not informed enough to care most of the time. No one will knock down your door for selling restricted keys, but distributors and manufacturers might not do business with you.

In my work, restricted keyways are recommended along with surveillance, NFC technology, and auditing as a way to limit employee key duplication. So people do rely on it.

MartinHewitt wrote:In Germany being a locksmith does not prove much more than an I.D.. Anybody can go to the office, fill in a form and bang, he is a locksmith. It does only prove that he has enough interest in the subject (legal or illegal) to do the paper work to be a locksmith.


I wish my state even had that. All we have is "bona fide" where a person claiming in good faith to create or service locks is legally a locksmith. It's why a hobbyist open to hired work like me can legally send tools through the postal system :smile:. Some form of credential would be much better. I would jump at the opportunity so long as it does not have onerous requirements to very part-time work.

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