FAQ  •  My feedback  •  Feedback
UKLockpickers.co.uk Lockpicking supplies such as Lockpicks, tools, and more! COMMANDOLOCK.COM Military grade padlock systems lockpickshop.com A source for lockpicking supplies such as lockpicks, locksmith tools, and more!

Crosskeying

<<

chieflittlehorse

Active Member

Posts: 282

Joined: Mon Jun 16, 2008 4:58 am

Location: Los Angeles, CA

Post Sun Sep 04, 2016 2:12 am

Crosskeying

My boss told me to make a MK system with 30 keys, schlage 5-pin. There's 31 different cylinders and some can be keyed alike.

The problem is the client wants all employees to carry only 1 key each. So my boss was crosskeying the cylinders.

My coworker tested out the system and said other keys work that shouldn't. My boss said I made the system wrong.

I already knew I didn't make a mistake. When I researched what he had done I told him it wouldn't work because he's pinning the locks to many keys.

I said that they would have to carry more than 1 key but that's not what the clients want.

So we're trying to figure out how to do it, that's me and two other employees.

I know it can't be done with what information they gave us.

Is there a solution to this?

CLH!
You leave my GRAPHITE alone!!!
<<

Riyame

Keeper of the Bests / Supreme Overlord of Small Format Interchangeable Picking Nightmares

Posts: 1946

Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2011 5:16 pm

Location: Canada

Post Sun Sep 04, 2016 3:19 am

Re: Crosskeying

31 different keys that all open the same locks? There must be so many master pins in there a sneeze could blow it open.
PhoneMan: I always knew I'd say something stupid and it would be someone's sig
macgng: i am an equal opportunity pervert
macgng: aww fuck thats goin in someone sig :-(

If life gives you melons, you might be dyslexic.
<<

jharveee

Active Member

Posts: 742

Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2013 3:14 pm

Location: San Marcos, Ca.

Post Sun Sep 04, 2016 11:52 am

Re: Crosskeying

Is this master key system for an apartment complex where the 31 keys need to all operate a common area door such as a pool gate or laundry rm.?
And then be unique to their individual unit door? Maybe he thinking of a "Maison" type system?
<<

mastersmith

User avatar

Contributor
Contributor

Posts: 514

Joined: Wed May 25, 2011 10:16 pm

Location: Miami Township, Ohio

Post Sun Sep 04, 2016 12:52 pm

Re: Crosskeying

How many different "combinations" do you require? If some can be keyed alike, that will cut this number down, but by how much? this is do-able, the biggest issue will be future expansion limitations. By the way, sometimes you have to tell the customer that the physical limitations of the system won't allow them to have what they want. If they are willing to buy better locks to get the desired result, fine. Otherwise let someone else work with them, you will be dollars ahead in the end. Equate it to going to the Yugo dealership and telling them you want Lambourghini performance, it just isn't going to happen!
"All ye who come this art to see / to handle anything must cautious be...." Benjamin Franklin
<<

chieflittlehorse

Active Member

Posts: 282

Joined: Mon Jun 16, 2008 4:58 am

Location: Los Angeles, CA

Post Sun Sep 04, 2016 2:08 pm

Re: Crosskeying

MK problem.zip
So I am going to upload a spreadsheet and maybe you guys can figure it out.

I highlighted some rows to show that they can be keyed alike.

To break it down for you on what I see, I have a total of 16 different combinations I have to make for the locks.

But with so many employees I have the difficulty of doing this job.

Note: The boss is trying to give each employee a different key (yet only one key) and still make this work.

I don't think it can be done. I don't see why some people can't carry more than 2 or 3 keys.

CLH!
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
You leave my GRAPHITE alone!!!
<<

MrWizard

User avatar

Contributor
Contributor

Posts: 337

Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2013 5:27 pm

Location: Arizona U.S.A. Planet Earth

Post Sun Sep 04, 2016 3:17 pm

Re: Crosskeying

Holy crap did you tell this guy you are a locksmith not a miracle worker. That is not going to happen if they want once ounce of security on those doors. That is way worse than what I thought you were talking about. I thought you were asking about one door like the main front door or club house. I was going to suggest a Master system with a Sub Master to give to all those employees that would be easy to do. Good luck with that. :shock:
"Those who believe in telekinetics, raise my hand."
Kurt Vonnegut
<<

tpark

Contributor
Contributor

Posts: 188

Joined: Fri Nov 13, 2015 10:17 pm

Location: Alberta, Canada

Post Sun Sep 04, 2016 6:37 pm

Re: Crosskeying

That is one scary spreadsheet - for access control this complex, card readers may be the way to go.
<<

WestCoastPicks

Familiar Face

Posts: 181

Joined: Tue Mar 08, 2016 4:45 am

Location: British Columbia, Canada

Post Sun Sep 04, 2016 10:53 pm

Re: Crosskeying

Maybe use the 6th pin in some locks? Everyone can use a 6 pin key, only 5 in most locks, 6 in some. It's a way to get more master pins in there! lol
But it does sound impossible. If not impractical.
<<

GWiens2001

User avatar

Lock-Goblin-Gordon
Lock-Goblin-Gordon

Posts: 3422

Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2012 3:05 am

Location: Arizona, United States

Post Sun Sep 04, 2016 11:36 pm

Re: Crosskeying

I'd guess the locks only have five pins, like a residential deadbolt.

Gordon
Just when you think you've learned it all, that is when you find you haven't learned anything yet.
<<

dmasters

User avatar

Familiar Face

Posts: 126

Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2013 7:14 pm

Location: Pacific Northwest

Post Mon Sep 05, 2016 4:02 pm

Re: Crosskeying

Program called MK Express will let you recursively build a master key system. Is that the right word? You add doors and keys then build a chart just like your Excel sheet and then press a button... BOOM! A phantom-free keying system that you can manually rearrange, add or delete to/from until your heart's content.

I attached your original chart with a small addition and then whooped up another sheet with your system bittings. Slow morning at work :)
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
<<

C locked

Familiar Face

Posts: 45

Joined: Fri Feb 21, 2014 10:23 am

Location: Australia

Post Tue Sep 06, 2016 2:19 pm

Re: Crosskeying

Dmasters beat me too it

Chieflittlehorse you're confusing users with the keys they require
Take a look at dmasters revised sheet to understand what i mean

And thankyou dmasters,
<<

chieflittlehorse

Active Member

Posts: 282

Joined: Mon Jun 16, 2008 4:58 am

Location: Los Angeles, CA

Post Tue Sep 06, 2016 2:32 pm

Re: Crosskeying

Dmaster did the keys correctly, something I didn't label before.

But what he came up with still wouldn't work.

Most of it seems to work but then there are some keys that still get interchanged.
You leave my GRAPHITE alone!!!
<<

dmasters

User avatar

Familiar Face

Posts: 126

Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2013 7:14 pm

Location: Pacific Northwest

Post Tue Sep 06, 2016 3:39 pm

Re: Crosskeying

Where is the interchange? There shouldn't be any according the software, but I may have fudged my transcription to the Excel sheet.

Chart.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
<<

chieflittlehorse

Active Member

Posts: 282

Joined: Mon Jun 16, 2008 4:58 am

Location: Los Angeles, CA

Post Wed Sep 07, 2016 1:14 am

Re: Crosskeying

Dmasters, I might have fudged to as I don't know if I understood the columns for the TP which I threw me off as I would call if Masterpins or MP. Was the 2nd and 3rd columns next to it supposed to be the other MP's inside the lock. I do my pinning different, that's why.

But first my boss wanted everyone to have different keys, then today he did it like you did, he used less change keys.

I will upload tomorrow evening what we came up with today because some people used the same key which I said they all for example use CK7. I was giving them all CK7 where as my boss labeled the same key as CK7, CK8, AND CK9 (ALL SAME BITTING).

He throws us all off, all three of his locksmith employees, haha.

Anyways, will show you what we came up with.

I left the my coworker to choose the cuts for the specific keys as I know where still doing crosskeying.

CLH!

ps. I feel like i'm back in locksmith school again.
You leave my GRAPHITE alone!!!
<<

dmasters

User avatar

Familiar Face

Posts: 126

Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2013 7:14 pm

Location: Pacific Northwest

Post Wed Sep 07, 2016 3:34 pm

Re: Crosskeying

Yes, the columns were each layer of wafers in the stack. I didn't think twice about the format because I'm used to reading TMK Plus charts and that's how they are listed :( But it sounds like you folks got it sorted out and that's the important thing.

chieflittlehorse wrote:ps. I feel like i'm back in locksmith school again.


Soak it all up and never stop learning :)
Next

Return to Professional Locksmiths

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: CommonCrawl [Bot]

Don't forget to visit our sponsors for all of your lockpicking needs!
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Grop
"CA Black" theme designed by stsoftware