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safe work: drilling -THRU- a glass relocker....?

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VancouverSpecial

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Post Wed Feb 04, 2015 3:09 am

Re: safe work: drilling -THRU- a glass relocker....?

Interesting thread fellahs. I just saw this on eBay - seemed related:

5/16 inch Hole Saw to drill glass . Locksmith, SafeTech.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/5-16-inch-Hole-Saw-to-drill-glass-Locksmith-SafeTech-/261757236864?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cf1f27680

It doesn't sound like it would work on tempered glass - however, have you guys tried one like this?
Sean


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Altashot

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Post Thu Feb 05, 2015 6:55 pm

Re: safe work: drilling -THRU- a glass relocker....?

I tried those bits...Does't work.
It did scratch the glass a bit but I couldn't even feel it with my nails.
Added little more weight to the drill press handle and a few minutes later, the glass shattered.

The failure took about 30 minutes.

M.
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Robotnik

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Post Thu Feb 05, 2015 8:02 pm

Re: safe work: drilling -THRU- a glass relocker....?

I spent several years working in glass manufacturing; the factory I worked in produced cast soda lime plate glass (non-tempered). This variety of glass is drillable, but it's touch- and-go, and you should expect to shatter a fair percentage of what you attempt. Tempered glass is all but impossible to drill; the stresses inherent in the sheet will allow even the most minute of errant cracks to run and destroy the entire sheet. The only way I could see drilling a hole through a tempered sheet is by using a high speed, diamond-grit, ball-tipped bit with light pressure and effectively grinding through it. That's a huge maybe, though; just talking out of pocket. You'd need dozens of bits and a clear calendar, I'd think.
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Josephus

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Post Thu Feb 05, 2015 9:47 pm

Re: safe work: drilling -THRU- a glass relocker....?

Here's something:

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VancouverSpecial

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Post Thu Feb 05, 2015 10:33 pm

Re: safe work: drilling -THRU- a glass relocker....?

Altashot wrote:I tried those bits...Does't work.
It did scratch the glass a bit but I couldn't even feel it with my nails.
Added little more weight to the drill press handle and a few minutes later, the glass shattered.

The failure took about 30 minutes.

M.


Thanks Altashot - I wasn't too optimistic but curious nonetheless.
Sean
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JamesOzment1

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Post Thu Feb 05, 2015 10:57 pm

Re: safe work: drilling -THRU- a glass relocker....?

I know when steel aloys are hardened in particular firearms knives industrial parts ect... that they need to be annealed befor machining/drilling/engraving.so perhaps instead ofvresearching how to drill tempered glass try researching how to anneal it .

Then the question is will the annealed glass contain the strength needed to subdue the spring tension of the relockers? If I am not mistaken I have seen my grandfather bore large diameter holes up to 2" in what appeared to be tempered glas on a coffee table with diamond holesaw bits and a water/soap mixture.
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Robotnik

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Post Thu Feb 05, 2015 11:54 pm

Re: safe work: drilling -THRU- a glass relocker....?

JamesOzment1 wrote:I know when steel aloys are hardened in particular firearms knives industrial parts ect... that they need to be annealed befor machining/drilling/engraving.so perhaps instead ofvresearching how to drill tempered glass try researching how to anneal it .

Then the question is will the annealed glass contain the strength needed to subdue the spring tension of the relockers? If I am not mistaken I have seen my grandfather bore large diameter holes up to 2" in what appeared to be tempered glas on a coffee table with diamond holesaw bits and a water/soap mixture.


A large portion of tempered glass is produced by taking annealed glass, heating it above its annealing point and cooling it rapidly so as to 'freeze' the outer surface of the glass while allowing the inner core to remain soft for a longer period of time. Even after cooling the glass is a balance of forces, with the crust pulling inward while the core pushes outward.

With tempered glass, you could attempt to re-anneal; heating the sheet above roughly 900 degrees F, holding it at temp, and gently stepping it down over a lengthy period determined by piece thickness to below roughly 700 degrees F. Temperature must remain consistent throughout the sheet, or else you'll introduce stress cords into the annealed piece and you're back to a similar issue to the one you started with.

In the context of a glass relocker, this would prove highly impractical. The consistency of heat required is simply not going to be achieved within a safe (I cannot stress enough how consistent the heat has to be throughout the glass). Even if you were somehow able to heat consistently, once the glass is heated above the annealing range, it would soften to the point that the relockers would fire.

Not trying to be discouraging here. By all means, if you can find a way to do it, go nuts; I'd love to be proven wrong on this, because it would be an awesome feat. I'm just relaying what many years of glasswork taught me.
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Doogs

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Post Fri Feb 06, 2015 7:51 am

Re: safe work: drilling -THRU- a glass relocker....?

I've been thinking about this and keep coming back to the idea of using a fine nozzled sandblaster. I guess there would be a problem trying to reclaim the blasting medium from the lock cavity though. I might look into getting/building a small blasting rig and trying this out if I can find the time. If I do get around to it I'll make a video.

Alternatively if someone is already set up maybe they could attempt it.
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GWiens2001

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Post Fri Feb 06, 2015 8:31 am

Re: safe work: drilling -THRU- a glass relocker....?

Doogs wrote:I've been thinking about this and keep coming back to the idea of using a fine nozzled sandblaster. I guess there would be a problem trying to reclaim the blasting medium from the lock cavity though. I might look into getting/building a small blasting rig and trying this out if I can find the time. If I do get around to it I'll make a video.

Alternatively if someone is already set up maybe they could attempt it.


Think that amount loose sand inside a safe door, coating the boltwork, linkage and so forth might create more of a problem than it solves. Definately would need to remove the back door cover and so a serious vacuum job when done. But it does sound possible.

Made a knife from tempered glass back in my late teen years. Took a lot of failed attempts, and it was not as pretty as I wanted it to be when it was done. Bought the tempered glass from a shop (who had to order it at a fairly high cost per piece). Then used a belt sander with extremely fine sandpaper held upside-down in a vise. Then used safety glasses, a full face shield and heavy leather gloves for protection.

Impatience and using too much force caused most of my failed attempts. What worked best was holding the glass at an acute angle and letting only the weight of the glass itself be on the sander, using my well-protected hands only to keep the glass from skipping on the belt. Skipping glass also caused failure and glass pieces everywhere.

The process for a successful blade took days on the one that worked. It is a very slow and painstaking process. No patience = no success.

So tempered glass can be shaped. Would not call it cutting or drilling so much as slow grinding, much like the above video. Sure wish I'd had that Dremel bit back then. It was much faster than my process.

Gordon
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oldbiscuit

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Post Fri Feb 06, 2015 9:07 am

Re: safe work: drilling -THRU- a glass relocker....?

JamesOzment1 wrote:I know when steel aloys are hardened in particular firearms knives industrial parts ect... that they need to be annealed befor machining/drilling/engraving.so perhaps instead ofvresearching how to drill tempered glass try researching how to anneal it .

Then the question is will the annealed glass contain the strength needed to subdue the spring tension of the relockers? If I am not mistaken I have seen my grandfather bore large diameter holes up to 2" in what appeared to be tempered glas on a coffee table with diamond holesaw bits and a water/soap mixture.


James, are you sure the table top had tempered glass? If it was years back or it was an older table it probably had plate glass which was fairly easy to cut and drill.
"It never fails - as soon as I find the key to success, somebody changes the lock!"
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JamesOzment1

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Post Fri Feb 06, 2015 2:38 pm

Re: safe work: drilling -THRU- a glass relocker....?

oldbiscuit wrote:
JamesOzment1 wrote:I know when steel aloys are hardened in particular firearms knives industrial parts ect... that they need to be annealed befor machining/drilling/engraving.so perhaps instead ofvresearching how to drill tempered glass try researching how to anneal it .

Then the question is will the annealed glass contain the strength needed to subdue the spring tension of the relockers? If I am not mistaken I have seen my grandfather bore large diameter holes up to 2" in what appeared to be tempered glas on a coffee table with diamond holesaw bits and a water/soap mixture.
it may have been plate glass. My grandfather was a master glazier and master locksmith .I have three uncles two cousins and a brother inlaw in the glass business ill pick they're brain see what I find. But tempered glass is fragile. Couldnt you just break the glass and rig a tool to insert through holes andcretract the relockers?

James, are you sure the table top had tempered glass? If it was years back or it was an older table it probably had plate glass which was fairly easy to cut and drill.
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JamesOzment1

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Post Fri Feb 06, 2015 2:42 pm

Re: safe work: drilling -THRU- a glass relocker....?

Sry that poat got screwed up on the quote.im using my not so smart phone.
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darijan

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Post Fri Apr 17, 2015 2:46 pm

Re: safe work: drilling -THRU- a glass relocker....?

Very interesting topic with only one end
  attempt to drill the glass on the door safe
Glass is crumbling relocker blocked mechanism in the safe.
And that is the beginning of drilling that remains forever in the memory
and from that memory remains justi will never ever do this again
it is impossible to 100%
  Perhaps it is possible to drill in a special workshop for glass
but not in the safe.
anyone who works with safes thinking has to be something it's not too big a problem but will be
  if you do not know the inside of the safe perfectly even if you have an image and written measures the working principle of the mechanism locks and position off relockers even temperature plays an important role.
we all want to learn and make progress, but we do not do on the hard way.

Take care and see you guys
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Jaakko Fagerlund

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Post Thu Jul 16, 2015 7:11 pm

Re: safe work: drilling -THRU- a glass relocker....?

GWiens2001 wrote:No reliable tool for picking even a Classic Abloy. But HuxleyPig has made a tool that does exactly that. (Great job, Hux).

Actually there has been tools for the Classic since at least the 70's and Falle has had a tool for numerous years and Huxleys version, though invented by him independently I suppose, was not the first to appear.

But the point is that anything is possible, its just a matter of how. In the case of safes, it is "no way in hell", as you have no way of using the methods glass workers use (annealing for example). The environment the glass is in doesn't lend itself to improvised means. So it is possible to make holes & shapes to tempered glass, but not when the glass is inside a safe and all you see is probably through a 6-8 mm hole or so.

If you really need to drill through the glass, first find all the relockers or their cables, drill to them and immobilise them and then drill through the glass. Or if you are sure the relockers are not relocked, drill through the glass and fishout the relockers from holes you have made. Sure it is lots of work, but that's the way it is designed to be.

What I'm wondering is how people fix those relocker systems, as the glass plate might not be readily available. Do you just order one from a glass supplier or just trash the safe or assemble it without a glass plate relocker system?
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dmasters

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Post Fri Jul 17, 2015 9:28 am

Re: safe work: drilling -THRU- a glass relocker....?

Years ago at my last gig, I worked with a crusty old safe tech and he told me of a group of safe techs that were experimenting with melting through the glass with super-heated drill rod. As the story went, the best they could manage was about a 30 second window before the glass shattered.

Sounds legit, but it could just as easily been a fish story... "That's nothing! I once opened a relocked TRTL-30 in a flooded basement with only my cordless drill and a coat hanger during a hurricane!" I've heard some pretty wild stories over the years :)

Jaakko Fagerlund wrote:What I'm wondering is how people fix those relocker systems, as the glass plate might not be readily available. Do you just order one from a glass supplier or just trash the safe or assemble it without a glass plate relocker system?


Replace the relockers and the glass provided by the manufacturer. Got to watch the same old timer tackle a jeweler's safe. He knew exactly what he was dealing with and took out the relockers first, then just went through the glass without a care. Clean up and repair took longer than the opening as I recall. It was when I was first starting out in this field when it was still "just a job", and wished I would have paid more attention :(
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