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Sargent & Greenleaf Rail Road Environmental Padlock Keys

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tpark

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Post Tue Dec 01, 2015 4:38 am

Re: Sargent & Greenleaf Rail Road Environmental Padlock Keys

I have some observations about the environmental padlocks and their keys that I would like to share.
The key actually rests on the larger diameter area and the friction/contact area is on the outside of the lock. The cylindrical area from the shoulder to the first cut is 0.148, shoulder to second cut is 0.321, shoulder to third cut is 0.550, and shoulder to tip is 0.810.
The lock depths are 0.161 to the first disk, 0.400 to the second disk and 0.660 to the third disk, and 0.870 to the bottom of the cavity.
The key which I measured had all three depths – my measurement for the “deep” cut was about 75 degrees from the 0 cut (which I think is about -6 degrees, with a 0 cut being 180 degrees) and the shallow cut was about 35 degrees. The key that I made used 36 and 72 degrees from the 0 cut. I used 180 degrees as a 0 cut, since I didn’t have the tools or the inclination to do the negative angle cut. The key works fine, but with some wiggling the key can be removed when the lock is open. I think that the official keys are cut in this manner so that the key will be retained if there’s a shallow cut that is being used to retain the key. There is quite a bit of play so I think the angles aren’t so critical. Since it may be based on the Abloy system, they may have used the standard Abloy angles, but there’s too much play to be sure.
The key design where the shoulder of the key turns against the lock is probably to prevent the key from jamming into the disk. A key without the shoulder will work, but if the key is jammed into the lock it will put stress on the first disk. If the key was inserted and the lock was dropped, it could conceivably damage the first disk. I don’t think this is really an issue with this lock, but it’s a good thing to protect against.
The newer locks (both 3 disk and 5 disk) have the pin that secures the cap drilled in a manner so you can’t access it without having the lock unlocked. This is a big design improvement.

So
A = 0 degrees
B = 36 degrees
C = 72 degrees
My home made keys have all been done with 5/16” steel rod, and I’ve brazed on a washer for the bow.
That’s all for now – once more locks come in I can verify if what I’ve found is correct.

I'm interested in seeing what other people have done for home made keys. One of the locks I obtained came with a key. They had used brass, which is definitely easier to file.
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Riyame

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Post Tue Dec 01, 2015 4:52 am

Re: Sargent & Greenleaf Rail Road Environmental Padlock Keys

tpark wrote:I have some observations about the environmental padlocks and their keys that I would like to share.
The key actually rests on the larger diameter area and the friction/contact area is on the outside of the lock. The cylindrical area from the shoulder to the first cut is 0.148, shoulder to second cut is 0.321, shoulder to third cut is 0.550, and shoulder to tip is 0.810.
The lock depths are 0.161 to the first disk, 0.400 to the second disk and 0.660 to the third disk, and 0.870 to the bottom of the cavity.
The key which I measured had all three depths – my measurement for the “deep” cut was about 75 degrees from the 0 cut (which I think is about -6 degrees, with a 0 cut being 180 degrees) and the shallow cut was about 35 degrees. The key that I made used 36 and 72 degrees from the 0 cut. I used 180 degrees as a 0 cut, since I didn’t have the tools or the inclination to do the negative angle cut. The key works fine, but with some wiggling the key can be removed when the lock is open. I think that the official keys are cut in this manner so that the key will be retained if there’s a shallow cut that is being used to retain the key. There is quite a bit of play so I think the angles aren’t so critical. Since it may be based on the Abloy system, they may have used the standard Abloy angles, but there’s too much play to be sure.
The key design where the shoulder of the key turns against the lock is probably to prevent the key from jamming into the disk. A key without the shoulder will work, but if the key is jammed into the lock it will put stress on the first disk. If the key was inserted and the lock was dropped, it could conceivably damage the first disk. I don’t think this is really an issue with this lock, but it’s a good thing to protect against.
The newer locks (both 3 disk and 5 disk) have the pin that secures the cap drilled in a manner so you can’t access it without having the lock unlocked. This is a big design improvement.

So
A = 0 degrees
B = 36 degrees
C = 72 degrees
My home made keys have all been done with 5/16” steel rod, and I’ve brazed on a washer for the bow.
That’s all for now – once more locks come in I can verify if what I’ve found is correct.

I'm interested in seeing what other people have done for home made keys. One of the locks I obtained came with a key. They had used brass, which is definitely easier to file.



Another Albertan! Welcome to the forum with a heck of a post.

Thank you for the specific measurements. I cannot remember off hand if anybody else has posted them or not. I believe another member Gwiens2001 made a jig to cut keys but that may have been for abloy classic. Others have used drill bits, stainless steel rod, drill rod, threaded steel rod, cotter pins, and brass to make keys out of. I once cast a key out of epoxy for giggles.

These locks were actually designed between Abloy, the FBI (I believe) and S&G. The very earliest locks all had square bow Abloy stamped keys with no shoulder on them. Shortly after they started to use their own cast stainless steel keys. The design change to the rollpin in the shackle hole also happened relatively early so the ones with it in the side are fairly hard to find.
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keymaster1053

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Post Tue Dec 01, 2015 7:18 am

Re: Sargent & Greenleaf Rail Road Environmental Padlock Keys

Hi Tpark,
Welcome to the BEST lock forum around. (shameless plug there) I actually did a youtube video gutting the S&G if you want to check it out. What number padlocks do you need? I may have one I can sell/trade.
keymaster

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09O5wcNT_0g
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(20:19:01) Riyame: lol
(20:19:05) Riyame: he is in dubai
(20:19:26) MBI rescinds his previous comment
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tpark

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Post Wed Dec 02, 2015 1:01 am

Re: Sargent & Greenleaf Rail Road Environmental Padlock Keys

Thanks for your kind greetings!
I have examined the environmental locks that I’ve purchased in greater detail. One of them is a brand new 5 disk version. This lock uses only two different types of cut, one at 0 and the other at 54 degrees but others.
The newer locks with the cap pin hole drilled through the shackle passage appear to be symmetrical. I note that the hole isn’t always on the same side relative to the text on the top and bottom of the lock This suggests that it doesn’t matter which side of the lock is drilled for the cap lock. An improvement is that the cap lock is no longer a roll pin. The newer locks have a small Allen set screw preventing the cap from rotating, much like the retainer in the Abloy 330 locks, except those ones are on the bottom. What this means is that it’s possible to disassemble and reassemble the lock easily. I think the size of the Allen key is 3/64.
In the 3 disk lock that I disassembled, the disks were labeled “0”, “2”, and “4”. This is consistent with Abloy 18 degree spacing. The 5 disk lock I have uses “0” and “3”, but it’s possible that other angles are used, just not on my lock. I think that they would code the keys so that the cuts on disks 1, 3, and 5 would not match any of the patterns on the 3 disk locks.
From discussions on this thread, here are the rules that I think the 3 disk keys should follow:
1) There has to be at least 1 “0”cut.
2) At least one of the cuts must be different.
3) Adjacent cuts are not permitted to be identical.
4) At least one deeper cut must be before a shallower cut.
I wrote a short program to test the possibilities, and here’s the result.
Bow: 0 mid: 2 tip: 0 S&G Key Name: 105
Bow: 0 mid: 2 tip: 4 S&G Key Name: 112
Bow: 0 mid: 4 tip: 0 S&G Key Name: 106
Bow: 0 mid: 4 tip: 2 S&G Key Name: 107
Bow: 2 mid: 0 tip: 2 S&G Key Name: 103
Bow: 2 mid: 0 tip: 4 S&G Key Name: 102
Bow: 2 mid: 4 tip: 0 S&G Key Name: 109
Bow: 4 mid: 0 tip: 2 S&G Key Name: 101
Bow: 4 mid: 0 tip: 4 S&G Key Name: 104
Bow: 4 mid: 2 tip: 0 No Key Name.
Based on what I see here, I think that key 4 2 0 (CBA in previous thread messages) is key 108. Key 112 violates rule 4, but since they actually made that key, I’ve included it here.
If you have two locks with all three types of disk used in the three disk environmental locks (cuts 0, 2, 4) it’s possible to make any of the configurations above, so if you want to test your home made key, it’s easy to set your lock up by using the disks you have available to you.

Keymaster1053: Your video is great - for me the tricky part was getting the lock back together.

Riyame: I am glad the measurements are useful. I made my keys from 5/16" steel rod, and I brazed a large washer onto the rod for the bow.
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Riyame

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Post Wed Dec 02, 2015 1:09 am

Re: Sargent & Greenleaf Rail Road Environmental Padlock Keys

Good info.

There are 2 sizes of these locks, the big ones (0880/0881) and the small ones (0883/0885) The last number signified whether it is a restricted or civilian version. The restricted big ones all have 3 discs. The civilian ones all have 5. All of the smaller ones have 5 discs.
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If life gives you melons, you might be dyslexic.
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railtech

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Post Wed Dec 02, 2015 3:24 am

Re: Sargent & Greenleaf Rail Road Environmental Padlock Keys

tpark wrote:

Bow: 0 mid: 2 tip: 0 S&G Key Name: 105
Bow: 0 mid: 2 tip: 4 S&G Key Name: 112
Bow: 0 mid: 4 tip: 0 S&G Key Name: 106
Bow: 0 mid: 4 tip: 2 S&G Key Name: 107
Bow: 2 mid: 0 tip: 2 S&G Key Name: 103
Bow: 2 mid: 0 tip: 4 S&G Key Name: 102
Bow: 2 mid: 4 tip: 0 S&G Key Name: 109
Bow: 4 mid: 0 tip: 2 S&G Key Name: 101
Bow: 4 mid: 0 tip: 4 S&G Key Name: 104
Bow: 4 mid: 2 tip: 0 No Key Name.
Based on what I see here, I think that key 4 2 0 (CBA in previous thread messages) is key 108. Key 112 violates rule 4, but since they actually made that key, I’ve included it here.


So what are the cuts for 118, 121, and 122 keys? Anyone know? Was it listed previously in this thread?--I'll have to go back, and double check but I don't think they were.

My notes (from Internet pics) indicate that 118 might use an "invalid" cut angle for one of the three cuts, and that 121 *might* just be a relabeled 109---or it could be close to a 109, but also substitute a 1,3, or 5 cut vice the 0,2,4 cut normally used in these locks, but I'd really love verification if anyone actually has seen or has pics of any, some, or all of these rarer keys.
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tpark

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Post Sun Dec 06, 2015 2:56 am

Re: Sargent & Greenleaf Rail Road Environmental Padlock Keys

railtech wrote:
tpark wrote:

Bow: 0 mid: 2 tip: 0 S&G Key Name: 105
Bow: 0 mid: 2 tip: 4 S&G Key Name: 112
Bow: 0 mid: 4 tip: 0 S&G Key Name: 106
Bow: 0 mid: 4 tip: 2 S&G Key Name: 107
Bow: 2 mid: 0 tip: 2 S&G Key Name: 103
Bow: 2 mid: 0 tip: 4 S&G Key Name: 102
Bow: 2 mid: 4 tip: 0 S&G Key Name: 109
Bow: 4 mid: 0 tip: 2 S&G Key Name: 101
Bow: 4 mid: 0 tip: 4 S&G Key Name: 104
Bow: 4 mid: 2 tip: 0 No Key Name.
Based on what I see here, I think that key 4 2 0 (CBA in previous thread messages) is key 108. Key 112 violates rule 4, but since they actually made that key, I’ve included it here.


So what are the cuts for 118, 121, and 122 keys? Anyone know? Was it listed previously in this thread?--I'll have to go back, and double check but I don't think they were.

My notes (from Internet pics) indicate that 118 might use an "invalid" cut angle for one of the three cuts, and that 121 *might* just be a relabeled 109---or it could be close to a 109, but also substitute a 1,3, or 5 cut vice the 0,2,4 cut normally used in these locks, but I'd really love verification if anyone actually has seen or has pics of any, some, or all of these rarer keys.


I couldn't find images for 118, 121, or 122, so I don't know. I'm in the process of obtaining a 107A key - I want to see if it works in a 107 lock, since it looks like it might work.
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GWiens2001

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Post Sun Dec 06, 2015 3:02 am

Re: Sargent & Greenleaf Rail Road Environmental Padlock Keys

The 107A key will work in a 107, but not the other way around. At least that is how I heard it.

Gordon
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tpark

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Post Tue Dec 08, 2015 9:06 pm

Re: Sargent & Greenleaf Rail Road Environmental Padlock Keys

Hi Everyone,
I've done some more research into the cut angles on the S&G environmental lock disks, and it appears as though my previous hypothesis about the angles used in the environmental locks is incorrect. After filing the key to the angles I mentioned in the previous messages, I found that the keys required additional filing so that the slots in the disks would align. I took the disks out, and built a jig to better measure the angles on the disk. With my jig, the angles are very close to a 40 degree difference, so the angles would be 40 degrees for a 2 cut and 80 degrees for a 4 cut. Keys filed to these angles work first time, at least on my lock.

Here are some images of the dissected lock and the jig which I used for the measurements.

Image
Image
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tpark

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Post Thu Dec 17, 2015 9:02 pm

Re: Sargent & Greenleaf Rail Road Environmental Padlock Keys

GWiens2001 wrote:The 107A key will work in a 107, but not the other way around. At least that is how I heard it.

Gordon


I tested this, and the 107A key works in the 107 lock. I think that the 107A lock is a 5 disk lock, keyed as 04402. The cut spacing isn't standard, that 0 cut near the tip is placed so it won't hit any of the disks in the 3 disk 107 lock.
Image
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Papa Gleb

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Post Thu Dec 17, 2015 10:43 pm

Re: Sargent & Greenleaf Rail Road Environmental Padlock Keys

Tpark, cant figure out which is your jig. Can you post close up picks and more info on the tool.
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tpark

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Post Fri Dec 18, 2015 1:28 am

Re: Sargent & Greenleaf Rail Road Environmental Padlock Keys

Papa Gleb wrote:Tpark, cant figure out which is your jig. Can you post close up picks and more info on the tool.


I had set up this jig to hold the disk (the disk goes over the key shaped steel piece) and I marked a spot on a sheet of paper where the notch on the disk started. Since the disk is quite small, it's hard to get an accurate measurement of the angles on the disk. In addition, the disk doesn't fit exactly on the jig, so the disk isn't perfectly positioned each time.

To more accurately measure the angles, I built a disk holder, and a shim so the disk would fit reasonably tightly in my jig. It's not perfect, but it's much better than the previous method.
Image

First, the jig and paper are taped down, so they don't move, and it's easy to swap the disks out The disk and shim are then placed in the hole in the holder.
Image
The keyway jig is then placed in the disk and rotated clockwise till it stops, then a mark is placed on the paper for that angle.
Image
A mark is placed in the center, and lines are drawn from the previous marks.
The angles between the lines are then measured.
Image

Previous measurements have yielded 82, 82, 80, 78.5 and 78 for various packs, so I think it's somewhere around 80 for a "4" cut - at least that's what it looks like to me.
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tpark

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Post Sun Jan 17, 2016 5:01 am

Re: Sargent & Greenleaf Rail Road Environmental Padlock Keys

I have made a device for actually picking the 3 disc environmental lock - I think the idea would work for the 5 disc version, but I would have to do some refinements to make it easier to position the end more accurately on the disc.

There is some trial and error involved - only one of the disks will rotate the cylinder, so if you have a lock with two "0" cuts (105 for example) and you find a disk that rotates further than the others, that's not the right disk.

The idea is to to position one of the disc rotators on the disk that you think may be the 0 cut, and then rotate that disc fully, and apply some force. Use the other rotator to move another disc - if the correct disc was chosen initally, it will be possible to feel when the locking bar isn't binding, and also the locking bar may trap the disc if you are lucky. There's actually a lot of friction in this lock, but when the gap in the disc is under the bar, it's quite noticable. Once you get this state, move the tool so you are manipulating the one you think has a 0 cut, and rotate the other disc. If you guessed right, the lock will open. If it's not the right disk you won't get any binding, or if you do, and you do he other disc, the lock won't open. If you find a disc where the loose spot is when the disk is fully rotated, that's probably the disc that has the 0 cut.

This was constructed with a steel needle for refilling ink cartridges, and some tension bar sock - I heated the stock with a torch (so I could bend it without breaking) and then silver soldered and tempered the joins. Some filing was needed, since the outer part has a greater diameter.

If you know the lock number and therefore the cut angles, it's relatively easy to open this lock, but this tool allows you to determine what is going on without knowing the lock configuration in advance.

Image
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MBI

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Post Sun Jan 17, 2016 7:08 am

Re: Sargent & Greenleaf Rail Road Environmental Padlock Keys

I haven't seen that approach to picking them before. Thanks for the great write-up.
We do allow you to upload forum thread pictures to our server if you want. It would allow people to see the work you've done long after photo hosting places have dropped the images for some reason, as always seems to happen within a few months to years.
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tpark

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Post Mon Jan 18, 2016 12:40 am

Re: Sargent & Greenleaf Rail Road Environmental Padlock Keys

MBI wrote:I haven't seen that approach to picking them before. Thanks for the great write-up.
We do allow you to upload forum thread pictures to our server if you want. It would allow people to see the work you've done long after photo hosting places have dropped the images for some reason, as always seems to happen within a few months to years.


I did see messages from the past where it would have been great to see the image - I'll use local storage in the future. I was trying to save you bandwidth, but I think it's better if it's hosted locally so the message and the images will be available as long as the message is available. Thanks for the info.

--Ted
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