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Sargent & Greenleaf 0883 ?

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iie

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Post Sun Mar 06, 2016 9:37 pm

Sargent & Greenleaf 0883 ?

I came across this lock months ago, have recently given picking it a shot. I think it's a 0883
I'm quite sure there are 6 discs, rather than 3 in the RR locks (edit: not 0881, that's the oversized version of a 0883) or the 5 I've seen discussed.
I can't feel which disk engages the set against the sidebar.
In a 5 or 6 disc lock did they ever use one of the middle disks? or does it have to be the front or rear disk?

Included are pictures of the lock and what I’m using to manipulate it. The rest of my picks aren't very effective.
http://imgur.com/a/kElWA

I saw some posts mentioning this pick, and some speculation about what exactly a 'adamantine lock' is
http://www.amazon.ca/Detainer-Locksmith ... B00RAOOV0O

I can't find a quick and easy source for this pick or a similar one. Is there one I should track down? or just make myself an approximation?
Last edited by iie on Mon Mar 07, 2016 4:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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tpark

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Post Sun Mar 06, 2016 11:57 pm

Re: Sargent & Greenleaf 0883 ?

iie wrote:I came across this lock months ago, have recently given picking it a shot. I think it's a 0883
I'm quite sure there are 6 discs, rather than 3 in the 0881 or the 5 I've seen discussed.
I can't feel which disk engages the set against the sidebar.
In a 5 or 6 disc lock did they ever use one of the middle disks? or does it have to be the front or rear disk?

Included are pictures of the lock and what I’m using to manipulate it. The rest of my picks aren't very effective.
http://imgur.com/a/kElWA

I saw some posts mentioning this pick, and some speculation about what exactly a 'adamantine lock' is
http://www.amazon.ca/Detainer-Locksmith ... B00RAOOV0O

I can't find a quick and easy source for this pick or a similar one. Is there one I should track down? or just make myself an approximation?


I have a 5 disk lock, and the one that turns the core is the third disk. I made my own tool to turn the disks, it's possible to pick these locks, but they can be hard to decode since everything is so stiff.
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iie

Newbie

Posts: 6

Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2016 2:46 am

Location: New York

Post Mon Mar 07, 2016 2:48 am

Re: Sargent & Greenleaf 0883 ?

In your 5 disk lock, how many different disks are there? I mean are these locks just like the RR ones? (edit: not 0881 that's the oversized version of 0883), with three disk options, or are there more?

I think I set the first disk while I tensioned the 4th disc, but I can't reach anything else while I've got my tool in the lock.
I can't add to my album from mobile.
Here's what I'm working with now: http://i.imgur.com/9BNQQHs.jpg

I did just notice the disc detainer section in the types of lock forum... I'll go do the required reading!
Last edited by iie on Mon Mar 07, 2016 4:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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GWiens2001

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Post Mon Mar 07, 2016 3:25 am

Re: Sargent & Greenleaf 0883 ?

iie wrote:In your 5 disk lock, how many different disks are there? I mean are these locks just like the 0881, with three disk options, or are there more?

I think I set the first disk while I tensioned the 4th disc, but I can't reach anything else while I've got my tool in the lock.
I can't add to my album from mobile.
Here's what I'm working with now: http://i.imgur.com/9BNQQHs.jpg

I did just notice the disc detainer section in the types of lock forum... I'll go do the required reading!


The three disk locks are made for the railroads. The rest are 5 disc.

Gordon
Just when you think you've learned it all, that is when you find you haven't learned anything yet.
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iie

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Location: New York

Post Mon Mar 07, 2016 4:29 am

Re: Sargent & Greenleaf 0883 ?

I think I'm not doing a good job of explaining my question.
I know the RR version (not 0881, my mistake, I'll fix my posts) is three disks deep, and the keyspace is three disks 'wide'
There are three types of disk in the RR locks, 0,40,80 deg or 0,45,90 deg, the measurements are less important than my understanding that there are only three options of each disk.

I'm wondering if my lock is built with the same disks? Or does my lock have more disc options?

A lock 5 discs deep, with three options for discs, is about 243 combinations, before eliminating the few that would allow key removal.
Could the keyspace be that small?

I'm quite sure I've got a 6 disc model, any way to confirm?
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Riyame

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Post Mon Mar 07, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Sargent & Greenleaf 0883 ?

With the 0883 locks there are more than 3 depths. I believe there are 5 or 6.

It is simple to confirm how many discs there are. Take your tool, turn the first disc all the way over, do the same with the second and so on. Once you do that and there aren't any more discs to turn count how many you turned.
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tpark

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Post Mon Mar 07, 2016 2:44 pm

Re: Sargent & Greenleaf 0883 ?

iie wrote:In your 5 disk lock, how many different disks are there? I mean are these locks just like the RR ones? (edit: not 0881 that's the oversized version of 0883), with three disk options, or are there more?

I think I set the first disk while I tensioned the 4th disc, but I can't reach anything else while I've got my tool in the lock.
I can't add to my album from mobile.
Here's what I'm working with now: http://i.imgur.com/9BNQQHs.jpg

I did just notice the disc detainer section in the types of lock forum... I'll go do the required reading!


My lock isn't a great specimen for this - it only has two types of disk in it. In my 102 lock, the disks are labeled "2", "0", and "4" which correspond to cuts of 40, 0, and 80 degrees respectively. The disks in my 5 disk lock the disks are 0-3-0-3-3 with 3 being 60 degrees. I have the "oversized" 5 disk lock though, so this data may be invalid for your situation. The 5 disk lock that I have has an identical core to the ones in the railroad locks, only the spacers are different. I have seen different keys for the environmental locks, so perhaps some of the cores use an Abloy rather than an S&G setup, but I don't know that for sure. The Abloy "Classic" key I measured just now has a diameter of 0.288 where my one of my homemade S&G keys has diameter of .308 - I'll post the actual measured diameter of the "official" keys I have when I get to work. This is important because if you're using an Abloy tensioner, the center of the tool won't be in the center of the lock when the disk is under tension, and that will make turning and interpreting what you're feeling when turning the other disks more difficult.

Edit: I measured a bunch of the keys I have, and the diameter of the "official" keys both brass and steel is 0.311-0.313
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iie

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Location: New York

Post Mon Jan 16, 2017 8:51 pm

Re: Sargent & Greenleaf 0883 ?

Ok, I got bored of the weekend and now with my knee mill back in service I made a cutaway of my 0883!

Turns out just about everything bows at the alter of the mighty ENDMILL

With the side opened up i could see what had to me moved and I opened the shackle, tore down the lock and made a few finish passes to clean up the cutaway.

I've got the 6 discs i expected, numbered similar to the ones in the RR locks. My lock only has 3 different discs, but their orientation matters.
Do the 0, 2, and 4 discs in the RR locks really not have a number on the back?

From the tip of the key:
Disc 2/3 3 facing the bow
Disc 1/4 1 facing the bow
Disc B/0 0 facing the bow (this is the disc to use when turning the cylinder)
Disc 2.3 3 facing the bow
Disc 1/4 4 facing the bow
Disc 2/3 2 facing the bow

The 4th (from the bow) position that turns the cylinder looks like the blank won't need to be cut at all.

The numbers that face the bow count from smallest cut to largest cut.
I think this key should be called a 3-1-0-3-4-2
Does anyone have a key for a 0883/0881?
Can you measure the angle between your cuts?
I'm inclined to guess the cuts are 0 - 15 - 30 - 45 - 60

If those are the angles, a 1/4 disc can be installed to require a 15 or a 60 deg cut while a 2/3 disc can require a 30 or 45 deg cut.

I think a 90 deg cut would leave too little key for reliable long term operation, is a 75 deg cut the same way? Could there be 0/5 discs in the wild?
Could there be alternate driver discs? Like a B/1 through B/4 ?
Do we think the driver disc is always in that 4th position?

Here's that cutaway, because who doesn't like a lock with a big hole in it?
Image
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iie

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Location: New York

Post Mon Jan 16, 2017 10:41 pm

Re: Sargent & Greenleaf 0883 ?

I found a picture of a key with 6 cuts:
Image
Image

I think this key codes to (tip-bow) 1 2 4 0 3 2
That 4 cut looks like 90 deg.
That doesn't really supports the 0 - 15 - 30 - 45 - 60 idea

90 / 3 is 30 deg, steps would be 0 - 30 - 60 - 90
90 / 4 is 22.5 deg, steps would be 0 - 22.5 - 45 - 67.5 - 90 <----This looks right
90 / 5 is 18 deg, steps wold be 0 - 18 - 36 - 54 - 72 -90

The two cuts I'm labeling 2 look close enough, If they are different cuts, it could be 1 2 5 0 4 3
That would require 18 deg steps.
Last edited by iie on Wed Jan 18, 2017 3:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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tpark

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Post Tue Jan 17, 2017 12:01 am

Re: Sargent & Greenleaf 0883 ?

iie wrote:I found a picture of a key with 6 cuts:
Image
Image

I think this key codes to (tip-bow) 1 2 4 0 3 2
That 4 cut looks like 90 deg.
That doesn't really supports the 0 - 15 - 30 - 45 - 60 idea

90 / 3 is 30 deg, steps would be 0 - 30 -60 -90
90 / 4 is 22.5 deg, steps would be 0 - 22.5 - 45 - 67.5 - 90 <----This looks right
90 / 5 is 18 deg, steps wold be 0 - 18 - 36 - 54 - 72 -90

The two cuts I'm labeling 2 look close enough, If they are different cuts, it could be 1 2 5 0 4 3
That would require 18 deg steps.




Check the railroad padlock key thread - it's got information/measurment about the disks in these locks.

If you take the disks out, the value is stamped onto the disk. I think a 4 cut is about 80 degrees based on measurements I took from railroad environmental locks. The consumer lock I have has 5 disks, and most of the railroad locks have 3 disks. I think the angles are closer to 0-20-40-60-80. Standard Abloy angle increment is 18 degrees (for classic and profile) so it could be that increment, but since the disks/keys are different, there's a possibility that a nonstandard increment is used for these locks.
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iie

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Location: New York

Post Wed Jan 18, 2017 12:13 am

Re: Sargent & Greenleaf 0883 ?

ok, so the RR thread showed wafers labeled 2 and 4, offset measured to be 40 and 80 deg

If the max cut in that 6 cut key pictured above is 80 deg rather than 90...

80 / 4 is 20 deg ... 0 - 20 - 40 - 60 - 80 could be correct... the 40 and 60 are a 2/3 disc...
I guess I can make keys from both sets of angle and see which works better

Here's the link i remember seeing for the sales literature. It describes the '83 lock as having 6 disc's
http://www.stanleyhydraulics.com/sites/ ... 0Sheet.pdf

any ideas why they have such different numbers of combinations for keyed alike and keyed differently locks?
est. 2400 for Keyed Alike
est. 1600 for Keyed Different
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tpark

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Post Wed Jan 18, 2017 5:29 am

Re: Sargent & Greenleaf 0883 ?

iie wrote:ok, so the RR thread showed wafers labeled 2 and 4, offset measured to be 40 and 80 deg

If the max cut in that 6 cut key pictured above is 80 deg rather than 90...

80 / 4 is 20 deg ... 0 - 20 - 40 - 60 - 80 could be correct... the 40 and 60 are a 2/3 disc...
I guess I can make keys from both sets of angle and see which works better

Here's the link i remember seeing for the sales literature. It describes the '83 lock as having 6 disc's
http://www.stanleyhydraulics.com/sites/ ... 0Sheet.pdf

any ideas why they have such different numbers of combinations for keyed alike and keyed differently locks?
est. 2400 for Keyed Alike
est. 1600 for Keyed Different


I've screwed up - the one I have is a 0881 - the 0883 is really an entirely different lock (it's much smaller and has a different core). I haven't measured the angles in the small ones, therefore the information I posted earlier doesn't apply to your lock. Sorry 'bout that. I have one of the smaller ones around here somewhere, I'll see if I can dig up some info on it.

I'll also compare the classic Abloy blanks with that key and see if they might work.

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