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Finally got my hands on a S&G Environmental

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tpark

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Post Thu Dec 17, 2015 12:56 am

Re: Finally got my hands on a S&G Environmental

GWiens2001 wrote:They do sell the larger locks, but only as five disc locks. Three disc locks are strictly railroad, AFAIK. All 'civilian' versions have five discs.

Gordon

I think that only the spacers and disks are different - the newer style railroad lock and the newer style civilian environmental lock appear to be the same lock. The set screw is a bit longer in my civilian lock, but I think that's just a design improvement so the screw has to be in the notch in the cap, otherwise the shackle won't go in.

The disc stacks can be swapped between the locks, and they will work fine. I'm getting one of the smaller locks too, I want to see what's really different between the larger and smaller locks. My suspicion is that the body and shackle would be different, but all the other parts would be the same, but I'll have to wait for the lock to arrive to be certain.

--Ted
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Riyame

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Post Thu Dec 17, 2015 1:12 am

Re: Finally got my hands on a S&G Environmental

They are different on the inside as well. On the small ones the key is a bit narrower and they are all 5 disc versions.
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twenglish 1

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Post Thu Dec 17, 2015 2:33 am

Re: Finally got my hands on a S&G Environmental

Anyone have any tips on pulling that rollpin to disassemble?, never mind, I can't believe I got it, I used my #4 swiss cut needle file and twisted the file into it so it would bite and I pulled it out while twisting in and the pin slid right out, disassembled the lock, I didn't know you can lock these in the open position? The shackle has a cut out where the ballbearing well go in when the lock is opened and the shackle rotated 180 degrees the key can then be removed and the ballbearing that retains the shackle locks into a different cutout
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GWiens2001

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Post Thu Dec 17, 2015 5:14 am

Re: Finally got my hands on a S&G Environmental

twenglish 1 wrote:Anyone have any tips on pulling that rollpin to disassemble?, never mind, I can't believe I got it, I used my #4 swiss cut needle file and twisted the file into it so it would bite and I pulled it out while twisting in and the pin slid right out, disassembled the lock, I didn't know you can lock these in the open position? The shackle has a cut out where the ballbearing well go in when the lock is opened and the shackle rotated 180 degrees the key can then be removed and the ballbearing that retains the shackle locks into a different cutout


The idea behind only being able to remove the key in either the fully closed/locked or the fully open/unlocked position is that if someone needs to walk away, they can easily see if the lock was left in the locked or unlocked state.

Gordon
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twenglish 1

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Post Thu Dec 17, 2015 11:55 am

Re: Finally got my hands on a S&G Environmental

I didn't know they did that, I figured it out when I took the lock apart and noticed the extra cutout on the shackle, fairly tricky lock to reassemble, the disk pack gave me a hard time
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tpark

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Post Thu Dec 17, 2015 7:28 pm

Re: Finally got my hands on a S&G Environmental

twenglish 1 wrote:I didn't know they did that, I figured it out when I took the lock apart and noticed the extra cutout on the shackle, fairly tricky lock to reassemble, the disk pack gave me a hard time


Interesting - the ones I have only let you remove the key in the locked position. I wonder if that behavior is a BNSF customization for their locks. I would think that the standard high security lock behavior of only removing the key in the locked position would be better, that way if you have the key, you know the lock is closed. Maybe it's for the situation if there's an electric switch lock as well, and you have to wait for that to release before moving the switch and securing it in the new position.
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Papa Gleb

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Post Thu Dec 17, 2015 8:10 pm

Re: Finally got my hands on a S&G Environmental

Very interesting thread going on. Learning some new things myself. I havent paid much attention to the 3 I have with respect to the lock operation with the closed/open shackle but Ill take a look and relay anything new I find.

Do anyone know when they stopped making the roll pin which holds the disc pack in the front of the lock and started to make it inside behind the shackle? Its a bit insane that such a flaw went on for so long, all that is needed is a needle file as Twenglish did and the disc pack is out and the lock can be opened with a screw driver. Please do correct me if I am mistaken.

Also, anyone know when they started to use rubber O rings around in the body round the shackle holes? I got 2 more yesterday (Yep 2 more making a total of 5 :D) and it had the O rings. Weird that they would try to keep the elements out when the lock is designed to operate after surviving an atomic bomb.
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twenglish 1

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Post Thu Dec 17, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Finally got my hands on a S&G Environmental

I couldn't believe how easy that roll pin came out I didn't think I'd ever get it out without drilling it, which I didn't want to do, whats the average price you pay for one of these locks? And adding about the o rings, only o ring I noticed in mine was to seal off the disk pack, picture of pulling the roll pin below, always thought a roll pin in a blind hole would be next to impossible to grab and pull
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tpark

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Post Thu Dec 17, 2015 9:26 pm

Re: Finally got my hands on a S&G Environmental

Papa Gleb wrote:Very interesting thread going on. Learning some new things myself. I havent paid much attention to the 3 I have with respect to the lock operation with the closed/open shackle but Ill take a look and relay anything new I find.

Do anyone know when they stopped making the roll pin which holds the disc pack in the front of the lock and started to make it inside behind the shackle? Its a bit insane that such a flaw went on for so long, all that is needed is a needle file as Twenglish did and the disc pack is out and the lock can be opened with a screw driver. Please do correct me if I am mistaken.

Also, anyone know when they started to use rubber O rings around in the body round the shackle holes? I got 2 more yesterday (Yep 2 more making a total of 5 :D) and it had the O rings. Weird that they would try to keep the elements out when the lock is designed to operate after surviving an atomic bomb.


The civilian lock which I purchased doesn't have any seals in it, and I've got a new style 102 lock without seals. None of mine have seals.

The cap is not held in place with a roll pin but with a small set screw in the newer locks. It may be possible to extract the roll pin with a tiny screw extractor, or to tap the center of the roll pin and insert a small screw and pull it out that way.
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Papa Gleb

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Post Thu Dec 17, 2015 10:41 pm

Re: Finally got my hands on a S&G Environmental

Ill take pics today and post them. The new ones are held in with a set screw your right on that with a small hole in the body for the wrench.

Twenglish, the price you paid is about fair but its very hard to say accurately. I have been following these locks since day one and it all depends on how many of them are listed or have been in the past few weeks. I have seen them go for as low as $35-38 to as high as $64. That price range includes, no original keys, home made keys, horrible condition, near or new condition. Now with original keys its around $100 plus. Plus I think the RR plays a big role as well.

I only paid for 1 of the 5 and the price is very low so I rather not post it unless of course its crucial to you.
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twenglish 1

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Post Thu Dec 17, 2015 11:23 pm

Re: Finally got my hands on a S&G Environmental

I must say I feel pretty good about the price I paid, the lock is in very good condition, better condition than I expected
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GWiens2001

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Post Thu Dec 17, 2015 11:30 pm

Re: Finally got my hands on a S&G Environmental

tpark wrote:
twenglish 1 wrote:I didn't know they did that, I figured it out when I took the lock apart and noticed the extra cutout on the shackle, fairly tricky lock to reassemble, the disk pack gave me a hard time


Interesting - the ones I have only let you remove the key in the locked position. I wonder if that behavior is a BNSF customization for their locks. I would think that the standard high security lock behavior of only removing the key in the locked position would be better, that way if you have the key, you know the lock is closed. Maybe it's for the situation if there's an electric switch lock as well, and you have to wait for that to release before moving the switch and securing it in the new position.


Try opening the padlock and turning the shackle so it is 180 degrees from the closed position. Merely having the shackle lifted will not allow you to remove the key.

Essentially, the padlock will be locked in the wide open position.

Gordon
Just when you think you've learned it all, that is when you find you haven't learned anything yet.
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tpark

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Post Fri Dec 18, 2015 4:18 am

Re: Finally got my hands on a S&G Environmental

GWiens2001 wrote:
tpark wrote:
twenglish 1 wrote:I didn't know they did that, I figured it out when I took the lock apart and noticed the extra cutout on the shackle, fairly tricky lock to reassemble, the disk pack gave me a hard time


Interesting - the ones I have only let you remove the key in the locked position. I wonder if that behavior is a BNSF customization for their locks. I would think that the standard high security lock behavior of only removing the key in the locked position would be better, that way if you have the key, you know the lock is closed. Maybe it's for the situation if there's an electric switch lock as well, and you have to wait for that to release before moving the switch and securing it in the new position.


Try opening the padlock and turning the shackle so it is 180 degrees from the closed position. Merely having the shackle lifted will not allow you to remove the key.

Essentially, the padlock will be locked in the wide open position.

Gordon


Hi,

I tried that on all my locks, but none of them will let me do that, there's no notch for it on mine.


Here's my reassembly instructions for one of my locks, a new style 102.

The c shaped spring should be on the middle spacer, and positioned so that the middle of it pushes out on the locking (notch) side of the lock. I use lithium grease in the core, but I think that there are only a couple of approved lubricants for this lock, otherwise you'll void your warranty, which probably isn't a problem for most people. The numbering is the order which the item is inserted into the core.


Image

I assemble the pack so that it's unlocked - in this image, the locking side, is facing us. This is important, as the notch side must face the notch that is in the lock. The side with the set screw hole is the side with the locking notch.
Image

I use a piece of brass rod as a "follower" of sorts - this keeps the balls from escaping (if you use enough grease, they won't escape, but the rod ensures it) plus you can use it to make sure that the top disk doesn't drop off the pack when you're inserting it. I usually have enough grease in there so it isn't a problem. Also, the outside of the pack assembly should be greased as well.
Image

Here is where the pack is inserted - the shackle must be fully inserted, and if the notches in the pack are all lined up with the slot, it's easy to push it in. I make sure that the notch side of the pack is lined up with the notch in the lock, otherwise it won't work properly.
Image
I test to make sure that the lock works properly by holding the top of the pack down with my finger and testing it with the key.
Image
Once you've determined that all is good, replace the spring/top cap and screw the set screw in so it aligns with the notch in the cap.
Image

The wrench is a 3/64 inch wrench.
Image

I hope this is somewhat helpful - if anyone has any hints or suggestions for dealing with these locks I'd like to hear it, or if there's something wrong with my instructions I'd be interested too - there's no guarantee that the locks that I have were assembled correctly, so if you see something wrong, or your locks are different, please let me know.

Many thanks.
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Riyame

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Post Fri Dec 18, 2015 5:18 am

Re: Finally got my hands on a S&G Environmental

I think it is only the 105 locks that can be locked open from what has been seen before.
PhoneMan: I always knew I'd say something stupid and it would be someone's sig
macgng: i am an equal opportunity pervert
macgng: aww fuck thats goin in someone sig :-(

If life gives you melons, you might be dyslexic.
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twenglish 1

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Post Sun Dec 20, 2015 4:58 pm

Re: Finally got my hands on a S&G Environmental

It may have been my mistake, but I thought the spacer with the spring was under the top disk (disk 1 when looking into the keyway), however it does make more sense for the spacer with the spring to be in the middle
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