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What's Up with this Mul-T-Lock?

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GWiens2001

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Lock-Goblin-Gordon
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Post Sat Sep 26, 2015 12:50 am

What's Up with this Mul-T-Lock?

What's up with this Mul-T-Lock?

Recently got a few MTL locks without keys. Picked one and disassembled it, wanting to see what the bitting would be, and saw some things that make me wonder if I'm crazy, are things changing, or did someone do a hack job of pinning/keying this core.

First, here are the pins as removed from the core:

Image

Yes, pin stacks 2, 4 and 5 have no inner pins. In fact, the key pins for 4 and 5 look like they are meant for Garrison/7x7 cores.

Now for the keys-eye view of the key pins (outer only for 1 and 3)

Image

This looks to be an Interactive +

Image

So 1 and three are what I normally expect to see in a MTL classic/interactive/interactive +, etcetera. So my questions to start:

Why is the second key pin solid, with a small cut-out as if there was an inner pin one depth higher than the key pin (inverted center point)?

Why is the pin for 2, which is the interactive (+) pin in this lock a 'C' depth? Shouldn't it be a 'Z', so it can be lifted above the keyway without blocking the shear line? This one blokes the shear line when only lifted to the top of the keyway, let alone above it.

Are the 4 and 5 key pins for Garrison/7x7 as I suspect? The pin length is just a little short of a '3' inner pin, but way too short for 'C' outer pin and way too long for a 'B' outer pin.

Measured the pins, and the data is below.

Image

My estimated key bitting, not counting master pins, is as follows:

Image

Is that correct?

Pin measurements I took a year or two ago gave me the following chart (estimates):

Outer pins:
A 4.60 mm
B 5.15 mm
C 5.60 mm
D 6.60 mm
Z Do not know measurement

Inner pins:
1 4.75 mm
2 5.25 mm
3 5.75 mm
4 6.25 mm
5 7.25 mm

Master pins:
1 .50 mm
3 1.50 mm

Please feel free to tell me what an idiot I am, but would like some input as to whether there is something wrong with the pinning of this lock. It looks like someone pinned this lock as if it were a Classic instead of an Interactive + based on the second pin, and just used Garrison/7x7 pins in 4 and 5, figuring that the customer would be none the wiser.

Thanks,

Gordon
Just when you think you've learned it all, that is when you find you haven't learned anything yet.
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lockpicker

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Post Sat Sep 26, 2015 6:45 am

Re: What's Up with this Mul-T-Lock?

Gordon

This how Mul-t-lock makes master locks now day, but it seems to me that it might been assembles at a locksmith shop as the factory also uses different bottom pins.


The solid pin are disgnd to capture a few combinations in the same pin.

"Why is the second key pin solid, with a small cut-out as if there was an inner pin one depth higher than the key pin (inverted center point)?"

This pin will lift all 3 possibilitys of black silver and gold
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GWiens2001

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Post Sat Sep 26, 2015 11:16 am

Re: What's Up with this Mul-T-Lock?

lockpicker wrote:Gordon

This how Mul-t-lock makes master locks now day, but it seems to me that it might been assembles at a locksmith shop as the factory also uses different bottom pins.


The solid pin are disgnd to capture a few combinations in the same pin.

"Why is the second key pin solid, with a small cut-out as if there was an inner pin one depth higher than the key pin (inverted center point)?"

This pin will lift all 3 possibilitys of black silver and gold


I'd think it HAS to have been assembled at a locksmith shop. Bet I can even guess which shop it was that did this.

While I can see the mastering possibilities with the pin in 2, it can't be for an interactive, because if it is raised to the top (let alone above the top due to the interactive) of the keyway, it is already blocking the shear line. It would only work on a non-interactive position of the key, 'C' depth cut. So it must have had a key cut as a classic, not Interactive.

The problem with the pins made without the inner pins is you lose a bit of the picking resistance.

Sigh.

Gordon
Just when you think you've learned it all, that is when you find you haven't learned anything yet.
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lockpicker

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Post Sat Sep 26, 2015 4:48 pm

Re: What's Up with this Mul-T-Lock?

This plug will never work with a classic key as the pin will be sticking out for the other side.

If you think that this master lock is pick resistance you might want to try others that are not. they will take weeks to open and if.
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Werewolf

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Post Sun Sep 27, 2015 3:48 pm

Re: What's Up with this Mul-T-Lock?

Could it be that the pins have gotten mixed up ?

The lenght of the first pinstack matches Z and 0. But from looking at the core (and housing pins) these should be in the second position.

The pins for 2 , 4 and 5 are pins used in Master Key Systems. And so are the wafers above it.

The 2 pins you have labeled 6 are side-pins. These are a passive additional security feature , used in Master Key Systems.


The pins , in the order you have them there are:
1: Z0
2: B-
3: A1 3+
4: A+ 1+
5: A+ 1+
And these will fit keys with cuts:
1: Z0
2: B1/B2/B3
3: A1/D4
4: A2/B2/C2/A3/B3/B3
5: A2/B2/C2/A3/B3/C3
Last edited by Werewolf on Sun Sep 27, 2015 4:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Trust me , I'm a locksmith
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GWiens2001

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Post Sun Sep 27, 2015 4:07 pm

Re: What's Up with this Mul-T-Lock?

Werewolf wrote:Could it be that the pins have gotten mixed up ?

The lenght of the first pinstack matches Z and 0. But from looking at the core (and housing pins) these should be in the second position.

The pins for 2 , 4 and 5 are pins used in Master Key Systems. And so are the wafers above it.

The 2 pins you have labeled 6 are side-pins. These are a passive additional security feature , used in Master Key Systems.


Figured the pins in 1 belonged in 2, and yes, the pins in 6 are passive. The '6' is just because I keep that cardboard for stripping locks at work, and some of those locks have 6 pin channels.

Appreciate the input. Any way you, or someone else, could list PIN letters/numbers and their respective lengths? Know it would take a little time, but sure would appreciate it. Am putting together a small pinning kit with pins stripped from several locks without keys as well as a few loose pins from a friend in Poland, so proper sizing would help.

Thanks!

Gordon
Just when you think you've learned it all, that is when you find you haven't learned anything yet.
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Werewolf

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Post Sun Sep 27, 2015 4:16 pm

Re: What's Up with this Mul-T-Lock?

Hey

I was editing my post with some more stuff , while you posted.
I added what I think is the correct pins and what bitting they will fit.
I used this as my source. It has pin lengths as well as the types of master key pins.
Trust me , I'm a locksmith
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Papa Gleb

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Post Sun Sep 27, 2015 7:30 pm

Re: What's Up with this Mul-T-Lock?

Haha I had the same in both my KIKs. The solid is MTLs master pin systems. They have solids and donut style masters.
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C locked

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Post Sun Sep 27, 2015 10:16 pm

Re: What's Up with this Mul-T-Lock?

Werewolf wrote:Hey

I was editing my post with some more stuff , while you posted.
I added what I think is the correct pins and what bitting they will fit.
I used this as my source. It has pin lengths as well as the types of master key pins.



Werewolf
Major thanks
With that file i have increased my knowledge about multlock
Built one classic once when doing a day training
But that file has more info than the "brochure" they gave out.
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GWiens2001

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Lock-Goblin-Gordon
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Post Mon Sep 28, 2015 3:11 pm

Re: What's Up with this Mul-T-Lock?

Werewolf, Thank you for the info. Read it, will print it out for my lock library.

There were two pins that I have for MTL that were not in the manual anywhere I could see. Perhaps you can explain them.

Image

The larger diameter one, first overall length, then the length of the wider section. The center hole is large enough that an inner pin will pass all the way through.

Image

Image

And the inner pin, which looks just like the other inner pins except for the smal protrusion at the top. Thought it might be an interactive pin, but don't see it in the manual. Again, overall length, then length without the protrusion.

Image

Image

Thanks!

Gordon
Just when you think you've learned it all, that is when you find you haven't learned anything yet.
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Papa Gleb

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Post Mon Sep 28, 2015 3:54 pm

Re: What's Up with this Mul-T-Lock?

Gordon that 2 piece pin is MTLs anti bump pins. Because of the 2 parts, it technically supposed to not let the lock be bumped as the energy gets transfered else where.

That other inner pin with a ball bearing on top is a contruction pin. So after work is done you use your key which shears off that ball making a new bitting.

I also just noticed that interactive pin in the plug looks shot. You may need to play with the pins to get the right size. One of the ones you sent me was just as bad so I picked a bigger pin then the key I used needed so it works fine.
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GWiens2001

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Lock-Goblin-Gordon
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Post Mon Sep 28, 2015 5:59 pm

Re: What's Up with this Mul-T-Lock?

Papa Gleb wrote:Gordon that 2 piece pin is MTLs anti bump pins. Because of the 2 parts, it technically supposed to not let the lock be bumped as the energy gets transfered else where.

That other inner pin with a ball bearing on top is a contruction pin. So after work is done you use your key which shears off that ball making a new bitting.

I also just noticed that interactive pin in the plug looks shot. You may need to play with the pins to get the right size. One of the ones you sent me was just as bad so I picked a bigger pin then the key I used needed so it works fine.


Unfortunately, don't have any keys to cut. :( Or a way to cut them accurately. Did one with a Dremel about a year or two ago, but it took a lot of trial and error to get it to work.

For the anti-bump pin, just put it in like a master pin, but between the driver pin and the spring when assembling?

The construction pin - it is not a bearing on top, but can see how it could be sheared off with the correct key.

Thanks for the info, PG. :D

Gordon
Just when you think you've learned it all, that is when you find you haven't learned anything yet.
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lockpicker

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Post Mon Sep 28, 2015 6:36 pm

Re: What's Up with this Mul-T-Lock?

If want keys for this lock let me know pls

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