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Medeco Code Keys- (Generations 2 & 3 all 20 keys are cut)

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barbarian

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Post Tue May 07, 2013 2:20 pm

Re: Medeco Code Keys- (Generations 2 & 3 all 20 keys are cut

monkeypick wrote:Thanks Barbarian, that was helpful, and to 10ringo10 as well for taking the time to respond.

I guess my confusion was over the fore and aft cuts. I am having trouble with how it makes any difference on a code key. For example, if I cut 2 angles in each code space, it has to be either L-R or C doesn't it. How do you account for the fore and aft part. Would I not just draw a particular angle on a blank (two per code space) and just cut it ?

I am probably wording this badly, but say it is aft left 10 degree cut, if I just draw a left 10 degree cut in that code space and cut it, will it not work? Sorry to be so thick about this but I have looked at the pics on this forum of code setting keys and I can't tell if there is something special about the cuts or if they have just been drawn out according to the chart Barbarian has provided and can be cut using my trusty Dremel.

Thanks


The "Classic" Medeco locks had a chisel point. The center of the point rested directly below the center of the pin. They had L-R-C cuts.

The Medeco Bi-Axial locks are very different. They don't have L-R-C cuts the Bi-Axial have K-M-B-D-Q-S cuts. The chisel point is not on the center of the pin. It is offset to the front or rear, ( before or after center ). Look up a few posts and you can see a nice picture of the offset chisel pins. So for any Medeco Bi-Axial key, if you were to cut at the center line of the pin, you would not be correct. The cut must be .030 in front of or .030 after the pin center line.

For example if you were to cut a Bi-Axial key with all AFT cuts and lets say we made all the angles Center just so the angles were not an issue. That key would not open a lock that was pinned with Fore and Aft pins even though the angles were all Center. The reason it would not open is that the chisel points on the pins that were FORE would not seat in your AFT cuts to the required depth. They would be held slightly high. Tobias talks about this too. He gives a chart on page 123 of "Open in Thirty Seconds". The chart has about 30 entries. A FORE cut at depth 6 opens a AFT cut at depth 5. That one depth difference seems to be standard through the chart.

One of the things that might be confusing is that a normal Medeco key for a Bi-Axial has 6 cuts. When you look at the key you can tell the spacing is not the same on each cut. The code setting and bump keys are all 12 cut keys (double cut) and its difficult to see whats happening. As far as the angles go, with a narrow code setting key, if you cut just one angle there is not much metal left to act on the pin. If you tried to cut two angles in the same space, say a 10 degree cut left and a 10 degree cut right that would open any pin, I don't think there would be any metal left to move the pins.

Lets say as an exercise you wanted to make a bumpkey for a specific Medeco lock and you knew the pinning of this lock. In that case you could guess the angles with your dremel. You need 20 degrees left at a certain space and we know that anything from 10 degrees to 30 degrees will probably work. Also there is no point in making cuts you don't need for this lock, so there would only be six cuts. The spacing would all be obviously different. Even though the pin spacing is .170 the space between a FORE and an adjacent AFT pin would be .060 more than the .170- Also the spacing between a AFT and an adjacent FORE would be .060 less than the .170- If all your pins were FORE or all your pins were AFT then the spacing would be nice and even for the whole key. You could probably get the depths right and the bumpkey would work. The problem arises when you want to make the minimum number of keys possible that open all the locks out there without knowing pinning ahead of time.

There was enough info in the book "Open in Thirty Seconds" to make a chart of the cuts for the bumpkeys, even though the actual cuts were not given in the book. It is an excellent book and if you haven't read it, I suggest you grab a copy. I posted the method I used to figure out the cuts for the bumpkeys and I think the cuts are here too. If anyone needs them I can probably find them again.


escher7 wrote:
If we could get clear pictures like this for all 4 keys it would be a great help.


Pictures are out there, I can take more if I can find my set of keys, I really don't think the pictures will be much help though. The depth and space info as well as the cut profiles are all available. If you think pictures would help, let me know and I'll see what I can find.

:cool:
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10ringo10

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Post Tue May 07, 2013 4:57 pm

Re: Medeco Code Keys- (Generations 2 & 3 all 20 keys are cut

This is what i get on the angles for gen twos...4 keys !! :geek:
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barbarian

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Post Tue May 07, 2013 5:13 pm

Re: Medeco Code Keys- (Generations 2 & 3 all 20 keys are cut

Look here... viewtopic.php?f=90&t=2249


It shows all the cuts and a few close up pictures of some code setting keys etc..
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10ringo10

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Post Tue May 07, 2013 6:16 pm

Re: Medeco Code Keys- (Generations 2 & 3 all 20 keys are cut

yes... that looks correct going from the one diagram my framon code 2 should make light work of these puppys !! thanks guys
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monkeypick

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Post Tue May 07, 2013 7:40 pm

Re: Medeco Code Keys- (Generations 2 & 3 all 20 keys are cut

I posted earlier but it seems to have disappeared. Thanks to Barbarian for answering my questions about Medeco code key key cuts in his excellent and detailed post. I think that I understand it now and will fire up the Dremel and try to make a set to see if they set the sidebar as they should.

Thanks as well to 10ringo10 for the chart, great to see how the double cuts are made. Now if I only had a proper machine to cuts these with.
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10ringo10

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Post Tue May 07, 2013 10:37 pm

Re: Medeco Code Keys- (Generations 2 & 3 all 20 keys are cut

Im not cutting the center cuts only the fore & aft \/ L-R as there not needed if a 10 degree angle will work both !!
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monkeypick

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Post Wed May 08, 2013 12:05 am

Re: Medeco Code Keys- (Generations 2 & 3 all 20 keys are cut

Thanks 10ringo10 for the clarification! I am going to get started and see what sort of mangled mess results.
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escher7

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Post Wed May 08, 2013 8:10 am

Re: Medeco Code Keys- (Generations 2 & 3 all 20 keys are cut

Barbarian - I was referring to the top shot of the 4 keys. The one you posted actually lets me see the angles and spacing of the cuts. I know the measurements and tables are out there, but I found the actual top view of the one key helpful and would like to see all 4 shot side by side to see the variations.
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barbarian

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Post Wed May 08, 2013 4:02 pm

Re: Medeco Code Keys- (Generations 2 & 3 all 20 keys are cut

Some pictures that might help. The cuts are essentially the same on the bumpkeys and code setting. I can't seem to find my "A" code setting key..
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monkeypick

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Post Wed May 08, 2013 6:29 pm

Re: Medeco Code Keys- (Generations 2 & 3 all 20 keys are cut

Thank you Barbarian for taking the time to post these pics. Incredibly helpful to have these keys shown this way!
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houdini1

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Post Wed May 08, 2013 6:49 pm

Re: Medeco Code Keys- (Generations 2 & 3 all 20 keys are cut

great posts we never see these locks in england but made very interesting reading
hope these are not silly questions so there were genereation 1 2 3
how do you know which generation by different keyways or trying keys
how many keys for each generation
if for sale at anytime would love topurchase the sets of keys and a lock to play with in the uk
thx again for the posts very very informative and clever guys on here :D
also how do you know if you have used the right key to set the pins does the plug rotate.
Last edited by houdini1 on Wed May 08, 2013 6:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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escher7

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Post Wed May 08, 2013 7:36 pm

Re: Medeco Code Keys- (Generations 2 & 3 all 20 keys are cut

Are all the angled cuts on these 4 keys 10 degrees off centre?
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10ringo10

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Post Thu May 09, 2013 1:08 am

Re: Medeco Code Keys- (Generations 2 & 3 all 20 keys are cut

Well i did make a start of sorts today !! got on to the sks key suppliers also :akimbo: NO 0.30 flat keys to be had.... so had an idea as id already started

I could only find the 16 gauge flat steel standard..this is also not good for the teeth on the cutting blade

going to make my own out of 0.30 brass strips...will save time and save the cutting blade :???: dont fancy grinding keys down too many !

will finish the vise or clamp and see how it goes...used the cut key as a template

pics to follow


TO BE CONTINUED !! :D
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Last edited by 10ringo10 on Fri May 10, 2013 2:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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barbarian

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Post Thu May 09, 2013 3:00 am

Re: Medeco Code Keys- (Generations 2 & 3 all 20 keys are cut

houdini1 wrote:........ so there were genereation 1 2 3
how do you know which generation by different keyways or trying keys
how many keys for each generation
..............
also how do you know if you have used the right key to set the pins does the plug rotate.


I'm guessing Medeco Classic was generation one. Never thought about it before.. :shock:

I would say different keyways was the best way to guess. If you can take out a single pin, it gets easier.

The Generation two were the Bi-Axial. They had the chisel tips off center. The generation three were Bi-Axial as well and added more cutting possibilities for the locks. Medeco hadn't allowed certain cuts in certain positions and they were simply allowed for generation three. There were thousands of possible keys for each generation.

If you get the right Bumpkey, the lock opens. If you get the right code setting key, then the sidebar is set and you get a click and a small rotation.
You will still need to pick the lock after using the code setting keys.

10ringo10 wrote:........ NO 0.30 flat keys to be had....



The thicker metal of the safe deposit blanks is a benefit while cutting the keys. It can be thinned after you are done cutting quite easily with a file.

escher7 wrote:Are all the angled cuts on these 4 keys 10 degrees off centre?


No. The cuts are exactly as given in my listing from the other post. The 10 degree cuts will work fine in their place, But I started with the cuts as given by Tobias, just to be sure.

Also:

The term "double cut" refers to a key with a cut in the FORE and AFT position of a pin. One lock can't have a pin that can be both FORE and AFT.
I believe this was done by Medeco for master keying. They could make two normal systems with 6 cuts per key, and then perhaps a master key that was double cut.
If they chose the cuts carefully for each key system, then the master could be made at a later date if a need for a master keyed system arose.
A master key made like this could have as many as 12 cuts on it. Or may be only partially double cut. With perhaps three or four extra cuts being enough.


The double cut does not indicate a 10 degree angle that works on a center pin as well as a right or left. That 10 degree cut was developed by Mr. Tobias.


.
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escher7

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Post Fri May 10, 2013 5:25 am

Re: Medeco Code Keys- (Generations 2 & 3 all 20 keys are cut

Barbarian:. Sorry to be so thick. I think I have it now. On a six pin key, the variable pins 1+2 are normal 20 degree or centre cuts. The other 4 have a combination of normal 20 degree and 10 degree cuts.
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