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Medeco Code Keys- (Generations 2 & 3 all 20 keys are cut)

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MrPharmer2012

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Post Fri Mar 02, 2012 7:40 pm

Re: Medeco Code Keys- (Generations 2 & 3 all 20 keys are cut

Also tring to make a code key for my 831's don't have access to key machine any more so I used dremel not quite as good but it sets 5 of the six pins not bad for a freehand dremel job
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MrPharmer2012

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Post Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:47 pm

Re: Medeco Code Keys- (Generations 2 & 3 all 20 keys are cut

My 6 pin code keys didn't fit in my lfic medecos because they are to long back is enclosed so key can't overhang so I cut four of the five pin keys gonna give it a shot tonight see if it works hopefully they are a b c d or 1 5 9 or 13 configuration
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Each has first 10 cuts rather than 12
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monkeypick

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Post Fri May 03, 2013 2:59 pm

Re: Medeco Code Keys- (Generations 2 & 3 all 20 keys are cut

I hope everyone will forgive a dumb question concerning code setting keys. Is there a difference in the code keys for 5 and 6 pin locks. It seems as though the Tobias set (four keys) may only be for 5 pin locks. Is the difference that the Gen 3 locks are 6 pin and the 16 key set must be cut.

Thanks for taking the time to set me straight.
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10ringo10

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Post Fri May 03, 2013 3:58 pm

Re: Medeco Code Keys- (Generations 2 & 3 all 20 keys are cut

Good point when you take into account the spacings and increments needed to cut the different keys on the framon !

and at the end of the day where talking about a series of cross and centre cuts on a cut down key...with lots of wiggling going on buddy

Just had a look at the gen 2 pdf ! Looks accurate going on the starting cut of .244 which is centre...this is not explained just states .213 then 2.75 for
the fore and aft cuts only
so youd have .213 fore .244 centre 2.75 aft...0.31 either side of the centre cuts on spacings ! all good id say.
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Last edited by 10ringo10 on Fri May 03, 2013 10:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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barbarian

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Post Fri May 03, 2013 9:15 pm

Re: Medeco Code Keys- (Generations 2 & 3 all 20 keys are cut

monkeypick wrote:I hope everyone will forgive a dumb question concerning code setting keys. Is there a difference in the code keys for 5 and 6 pin locks. It seems as though the Tobias set (four keys) may only be for 5 pin locks. Is the difference that the Gen 3 locks are 6 pin and the 16 key set must be cut.

Thanks for taking the time to set me straight.


Not a dumb question..

They are for 6 pin locks. According to Mr. Tobias the keys will also work on the 5 pin locks if they can be inserted all the way into the shoulder. Or I suppose you could trim the keys to a shorter length.

The reason why more keys are required for the newer locks is because the Medeco company allowed additional combinations of angles in certain positions. So for example a certain pin position may have only allowed a Left or Center cut, would now be allowed to have a Right cut. This gave them about 2500 more key combinations and meant that a 10 degree left cut that would work on the left or center pin rotation, would not work on the right pin rotation.

:D
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monkeypick

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Post Fri May 03, 2013 10:36 pm

Re: Medeco Code Keys- (Generations 2 & 3 all 20 keys are cut

Barbarian:

Thank you for taking the time to answer my question, especially concerning the new generation keys. I am going to experiment and see if I can cut my own set of with my Dremel. We will see how it goes. Cheers.
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escher7

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Post Sat May 04, 2013 8:59 am

Re: Medeco Code Keys- (Generations 2 & 3 all 20 keys are cut

McPharmer:
Your first link is not valid. Please update if you get the chance.
Last edited by escher7 on Mon May 06, 2013 10:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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escher7

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Post Sat May 04, 2013 7:47 pm

Re: Medeco Code Keys- (Generations 2 & 3 all 20 keys are cut

I'm still on Primus, but in reading Tobias' patent, he states that the best way to cut these Medeco by-pass keys is to clamp two of them together so the angles are easier to judge and so the thinner blanks don't bend. Hope this helps.
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monkeypick

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Post Mon May 06, 2013 1:41 pm

Re: Medeco Code Keys- (Generations 2 & 3 all 20 keys are cut

I am attempting to cut my first set of 4 code setting keys. Barbarian's and other posts have been a help in understanding the process.

My problem is this. Barbarian excellent post under Medeco Bump Keys on November 224, 2009, says that the 4 keys have the following double cuts:

Key A = Q-D / B-S / KB-S / Q-DM / K-DS / QB-M
Key B = Q-D / B-M / KB-S / Q-DM / K-DS / QB-M
Key C = K-D / B-S / KB-S / Q-DM / K-DS / QB-M
Key D = K-D / B-M / KB-S / Q-DM / K-DS / QB-M

He explained that "DS" means and aft cut 10 degrees right. My question is this. If we can Key A as an example, can I just make the following cuts: RC CR LC RL LR RL in each code space? Why is it necessary to add the "D" in DS when the cuts would seem to turn out the same if we just used the simple left, right, centre cuts. Whether or not they are identified as fore or aft doesn't seem to change the final cut.

I am clearly missing something here that is probably plain to everyone else.
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barbarian

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Post Mon May 06, 2013 4:25 pm

Re: Medeco Code Keys- (Generations 2 & 3 all 20 keys are cut

I'm not 100% sure I understand your question, but this might help.

The six pin Medeco locks can have either a "Fore" or "Aft" pin in each location. This stands for "before" and "after". So the chisel tip is offset either before the center line of the pin or after.
Tobias analyzed the tables that Medeco provides of "allowed" combinations of cuts. He reduced this down to the smallest number of keys that would operate all the allowed combinations.

The Medeco standard cut is at 20 degrees. Tobias also found that a cut at 10 degrees would operate a pin at 20 degrees or a pin at zero degrees. So a 10 degree cut will operate two pins. If you had a 10 degree left cut on one key and a 10 degree right on another, then all three possible pins would be operated, even though the 10 degree cut is not correct for any pin.

Also to reduce the number of keys further, each key has 12 cuts on it. So each space has a cut in the fore and a cut in the aft position. The way they use the letters is a clue to the cuts. Original Medeco used L-R-C representing Left-Right and Center. With the Bi-axial they added the letters from the alphabet just before and just after L-R-C. So that "D" represents a cut in the aft position with zero degree angle. Essentially an Aft-Center cut. Also something like an "Q" cut is before-right because Q comes just before R in the alphabet.

So on the code-setting or bumpkeys a cut like K-DS indicates a K cut on the first position ( K is just before L in the alphabet ) and a DS indicates a 10 degree cut ( halfway between center and right ) and we know it's an Aft cut because D comes after C and S comes after R.

From your post : Key A = Q-D / B-S / KB-S / Q-DM / K-DS / QB-M. This shows 12 cuts, each space has a Fore and an Aft. If you only used six cuts per key, you would need many more keys to operate all the allowable combinations from the Medeco code book.

Hope that helps a bit..
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10ringo10

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Post Mon May 06, 2013 5:35 pm

Re: Medeco Code Keys- (Generations 2 & 3 all 20 keys are cut

TOBIAS as limited the keys needed to set the pins by making more cuts on anyone bitting !
2 letters = 2 cuts
3 letters = 3 cuts on a bitting or pin position REALLY ALL the angles possible L-C-R ON A KEY :D SEE FRAMON PIC

L = K L M \
C = B C D I
R = Q R S /
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monkeypick

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Post Mon May 06, 2013 6:24 pm

Re: Medeco Code Keys- (Generations 2 & 3 all 20 keys are cut

Thanks Barbarian, that was helpful, and to 10ringo10 as well for taking the time to respond.

I guess my confusion was over the fore and aft cuts. I am having trouble with how it makes any difference on a code key. For example, if I cut 2 angles in each code space, it has to be either L-R or C doesn't it. How do you account for the fore and aft part. Would I not just draw a particular angle on a blank (two per code space) and just cut it ?

I am probably wording this badly, but say it is aft left 10 degree cut, if I just draw a left 10 degree cut in that code space and cut it, will it not work? Sorry to be so thick about this but I have looked at the pics on this forum of code setting keys and I can't tell if there is something special about the cuts or if they have just been drawn out according to the chart Barbarian has provided and can be cut using my trusty Dremel.

Thanks
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10ringo10

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Post Mon May 06, 2013 6:54 pm

Re: Medeco Code Keys- (Generations 2 & 3 all 20 keys are cut

Go for it buddy ....mark it all out with your angles !
dont go mad on the angles 10 degress is nothing to speak of and have fun :razz: you can always make alterations later on in any case
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escher7

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Post Mon May 06, 2013 10:27 pm

Re: Medeco Code Keys- Are Finished (Gen 2) pics/video posted

barbarian wrote:
omegaman wrote:...
To make these keys am I correct in saying you need to use a medeco key cutting machine

Also was the code setting keys concept a result of the research by Marc Tobias and Tobias Bluzmanis or do pro locksmiths carry these in order to compromise
Medeco locks ....



I used a milling machine, you can also use a Framon machine that allows you to change the angles.
Tobias also mentions an ITL 9700 and of course the Medeco machine will work too.

I believe the code setting concept was developed by Tobias. He describes it in the book "Open in Thirty Seconds".
You can see how the idea progressed in great detail.

Sadly many pro locksmiths believe Medeco is pick proof and bump proof.
They think all the demonstrations of picking and bumping are modified locks with only one or two pins or no sidebar.



For those wondering if Tobias came up with the idea, he patented it in 2010. Interestingly, his patent application reveals that the origin of this idea was auto try-out keys. Apparently try-out keys average their cuts between two regular pin depths so that one cut can open both pin depths by jiggling the key. Medeco pin setting keys simply use the same concept by cutting at 10 degrees instead of 20, thus covering two angles for the side bar.

The patent application does give a unique explanation of the design, but unfortunately is not sufficient to make the keys. It gives the origin of the idea (just described), explains the 10 degree "averaging", and explains how he cuts the key angles (by clamping two keys together to avoid bending and to see the angles better) and has some accompanying diagrams. I am in the process of reviewing the patent app in detail to see what else is helpful and will do a post in the future.
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escher7

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Post Mon May 06, 2013 10:31 pm

Re: Need Help Starting on Medeco Code Setting Keys

barbarian wrote:
MrPharmer2012 wrote:Making the code Setting Keys
....
The Cut
Image


Nice looking job !!

The picture of the cuts is a great indicator. I found a very fine file or even a file wrapped in emery cloth was good for trimming and finishing. Nice to have them thin enough that they slip in the keyway with some looseness. I also marked on the side of the key a little groove that would line up with the face of the plug to tell me they were in the proper depth.

Don't forget the depths are different for bumpkeys. Go .010 deeper for the "fore" cuts and .020 deeper for the "aft"

:D :D :D



If we could get clear pictures like this for all 4 keys it would be a great help.
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