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Medeco m3 "Bumping"

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escher7

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Post Mon May 13, 2013 6:02 pm

Re: Medeco m3 "Bumping"

Thanks for the info Xeo. I'll save the Medeco cams for another year. I am just coming back to picking after a long layoff, so I am just cleaning up my Primus technique. Medecos are next as my friendly local smith was nice enough to give me two biaxials and an M3. I'll start with the keys and then work on the "purist" techniques. The Medeco cylinders I have are pretty clean, but I note that there is enough grime to make rotation of the pins by a pick fairly difficult. Maybe a soaking in solvent first. And since they have removable pins, beginning with one or two pins in place sounds like a plan.

Cheers.
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xeo

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Post Mon May 13, 2013 6:09 pm

Re: Medeco m3 "Bumping"

That is how I learned, by progressively pinning up a Medeco classic starting with one pin and working up to six, then adding all mushroom drivers, then getting wild with the bitting, then playing with the angles (all left, all right, all center, alternating, etc). There's plenty of information on this site to help you pick Medecos, and lots of videos out there. I'd be glad to help if you're serious in learning them SPP. I would suggest learning the m3 last, as to open the m3 you will need the techniques required to open a classic and biaxial. The m3 slider will only get in your way in learning and become an annoyance.

As far as the cleanliness of the lock, the grime will hinder your picking attempts and dampen feedback... so definitely clean the whole lock before you start learning.
Image
The code is hidden in the tumblers. One position opens the lock, another position opens one of these doors...
http://www.youtube.com/xeotech1

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xeo

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Post Mon May 13, 2013 6:11 pm

Re: Medeco m3 "Bumping"

Also, try and get your hands on an array of biaxial/classic keypins and drivers so you can mess around with the bitting/angles/etc. I don't have any extras that I can give you... all I have are my small collection of biaxial pins that I won't part with. I've seen packs of Medeco pins on eBay now and then.
Image
The code is hidden in the tumblers. One position opens the lock, another position opens one of these doors...
http://www.youtube.com/xeotech1

(ノಠ益ಠ)ノ彡┻━┻

░░░░░░░░░░░░░Image
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huxleypig

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Post Mon May 13, 2013 6:30 pm

Re: Medeco m3 "Bumping"

Quick one about the protec - it apparently does have a pick for it (not the decoder either).

Also, Escher, you say there's a pick for the Abloy Classic? I have one such 'pick' but it is next to useless unless you have decoded the lock already and know the key cuts. Do you know of a better one?
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escher7

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Post Mon May 13, 2013 8:21 pm

Re: Medeco m3 "Bumping"

huxleypig wrote:Quick one about the protec - it apparently does have a pick for it (not the decoder either).

Also, Escher, you say there's a pick for the Abloy Classic? I have one such 'pick' but it is next to useless unless you have decoded the lock already and know the key cuts. Do you know of a better one?


I am sure we are talking about the same one, but apparently there is a big difference between the Chinese made model and the U.S. model - sloppy machining etc. I haven't got the URL at my finger tips but there is a good video online, along with some 3D breakdowns (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eb1Mv9XHgms) of how it works. As I understand it, and I don't own the tool, but the reason the old Abloys can be picked is that the distance between disks is uniform. Thus the lines on the tool will guide you to the disks. Protecs if I am not mistaken randomize the distance so no one knows where the disks are. Like anything, it depends on practice and skill.
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kilby

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Post Tue May 14, 2013 12:33 pm

Re: Medeco m3 "Bumping"

escher7 wrote:
If Xeo thinks Tobias code setting keys are cheating then I imagine a drill is really cheating.
One of these days some elite picker will defeat the Protec. The Classic has been beaten, although again, special tools are required. There was a day when Medeco was considered insurmountable.


Everything will be defeated but from the available (reliable) evidence the Protec is doing OK at this point (next week could be a different story)

Purism vs expedience are two different things :) It has become semi practical to once again pick a Medeco (they had an issue, it was fixed then they reintroduced the problem from what I have read)

The current semi practical Abloy method is to murder the lock (or or hasp)

However what I hope is that if the Protec becomes as pickable as the Medico that they no not do a Medeco and claim it never happened.

I would also like Medeco to admit to the issue as it has been shown (certificate issuers in the IT industry) that simply hiding issues destroys your business

They have a good product, but it's time to improve it
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huxleypig

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Post Tue May 14, 2013 4:33 pm

Re: Medeco m3 "Bumping"

escher7 wrote:
huxleypig wrote:Quick one about the protec - it apparently does have a pick for it (not the decoder either).

Also, Escher, you say there's a pick for the Abloy Classic? I have one such 'pick' but it is next to useless unless you have decoded the lock already and know the key cuts. Do you know of a better one?


I am sure we are talking about the same one, but apparently there is a big difference between the Chinese made model and the U.S. model - sloppy machining etc. I haven't got the URL at my finger tips but there is a good video online, along with some 3D breakdowns (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eb1Mv9XHgms) of how it works. As I understand it, and I don't own the tool, but the reason the old Abloys can be picked is that the distance between disks is uniform. Thus the lines on the tool will guide you to the disks. Protecs if I am not mistaken randomize the distance so no one knows where the disks are. Like anything, it depends on practice and skill.


It is the same pick. I don't see how superior machining will help with this pick. The video you show is the abus pick and has a central keyway and so makes picking it easier due to the centre of rotation of the pick head.

The abloy tool is here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8eo107h3H8

and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnH9OSvdtFE

It shows the pick moving the discs from back to front and this is great if you already know the cuts OR the lock just so happens to bind up from back to front (unlikely). You could decode the discs by changing the head and making a decoder for the tool then dialling the code in like in the videos.

In reality the locks I have don't bind up from back to front and so moving the binding disc and then having to move a disc behind it is impossible without disturbing the 1st set disc.

Purely picking the lock in this way is IMO impossible without making a pretty advanced pick that is happy moving around the side of already set discs. I have other ideas regarding opening these locks non-destructively but not purely with a pick alone.

**EDIT**

OK, I've changed my mind. I think MIGHT be pickable with this pick after all. But that might change again! It might be possible to rotate a disc 90 degrees but the head would need changing and you could only move the disc in one direction, moving it back again would disturb others.
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escher7

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Location: Canada

Post Tue May 14, 2013 6:56 pm

Re: Medeco m3 "Bumping"

Huxleypig:

Sorry about the wrong 3D.

As I mentioned, I don't own the tool so any comment is merely based on what I have read. I understand the issue of not disturbing the disc after it is set from working on disk detainer locks. Is it possible, if the tool is slim enough, that it is moved to a spacer before backing off? I am going to look for some of the Abloy videos I have seen to figure out how they do it as the Classic is on my list of to do's.
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huxleypig

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Post Tue May 14, 2013 7:05 pm

Re: Medeco m3 "Bumping"

escher7 wrote:Huxleypig:

Sorry about the wrong 3D.

As I mentioned, I don't own the tool so any comment is merely based on what I have read. I understand the issue of not disturbing the disc after it is set from working on disk detainer locks. Is it possible, if the tool is slim enough, that it is moved to a spacer before backing off? I am going to look for some of the Abloy videos I have seen to figure out how they do it as the Classic is on my list of to do's.


This tool is slim enough to do that. The issue with this tool is that the end is half moon shaped and so moving a disc 90 degrees mean you can't get past it and rotate back to 0 degrees for the next disc without disturbing it. It is a major annoyance with this half moon profile!

I made a different pick head a while ago and I think I can modify that to work but as I say you could only move discs in the one direction. Maybe a different shaped head would work to move them both ways. The problem comes from how to rotate the head. It will always be off centre.
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escher7

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Posts: 696

Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2013 6:20 am

Location: Canada

Post Tue May 14, 2013 9:21 pm

Re: Medeco m3 "Bumping"

Hux:

Just to clarify for me, is it the tension on the bottom disk that gives you the feedback? (We should probably move this Abloy discussion to the correct forum.)

P.S. Do you have any old Abloy Classics to spare? I am pretty poor these days and postage to Canada is a fortune, but I would like to score one cheap.
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