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Medeco m3 "Bumping"

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escher7

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Post Sat May 11, 2013 4:11 pm

Re: Medeco m3 "Bumping"

Farmerfreak wrote:
escher7 wrote:
xeo wrote:Yeah.. I'm just a strict masochist picker who only uses a short hook.. I don't even consider a lock picked by me personally unless I've only SPP'ed it using a pick and wrench. Maybe I'm just a psycho :twisted:



How many Medecos have you successfully picked and which ones? (And yes I know I am responding to a three year old post.)
I'm not sure if you realized this when you posted. But you just asked one of the (currently) most talented medeco pickers how many he's picked. I'm sure he lost count a long time ago..



I know who he is and I wasn't being smart-assed. Medecos are very hard to pick spp, even by pros without some special tools, especially the ones with the latest pins. It was a serious question.
Perhaps a better question would be do you use only a conventional pick and wrench or a special pick to turn the pins? And would your method be efficient for a covert entry?
Tobias' method, while not a purist approach, does give a quick method of entry, at least for generation 2 locks and for that reason is a real world threat to the security of Medeco locks.
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mrbinky

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Post Sat May 11, 2013 5:33 pm

Re: Medeco m3 "Bumping"

oh wow, I didn't think It was poss. thanks for the info mbi
we are anonymous
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huxleypig

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Post Sat May 11, 2013 7:14 pm

Re: Medeco m3 "Bumping"

Well, they can only be bumped once the sidebar code had been set. Which can be done with special code setting keys (which you can make your own version of if you like).

At that point bumping it provides a quick and easy entry but picking one once the sidebar is set isn't as hard as escher7 is making out. I'm no wonder picker and I've opened the classic, biaxial, M3 and the camlock with normal tools in not too long a time (in fact, I found setting the rotation was the hardest thing, not picking it). I do have a hook with a 'V' cut out of it to help with pin rotation but I just use a normal old medium hook most of the time.
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escher7

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Post Sat May 11, 2013 9:39 pm

Re: Medeco m3 "Bumping"

huxleypig wrote:Well, they can only be bumped once the sidebar code had been set. Which can be done with special code setting keys (which you can make your own version of if you like).

At that point bumping it provides a quick and easy entry but picking one once the sidebar is set isn't as hard as escher7 is making out. I'm no wonder picker and I've opened the classic, biaxial, M3 and the camlock with normal tools in not too long a time (in fact, I found setting the rotation was the hardest thing, not picking it). I do have a hook with a 'V' cut out of it to help with pin rotation but I just use a normal old medium hook most of the time.




I am not sure if you are saying that picking is easy after the sidebar is set, which is true except for a couple of security pins, or if you are saying Medecos are easy from the get go. If you are saying the latter, I would disagree. There are not many that can pick Medecos without special tools. If you can, then you are in the minority.
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Farmerfreak

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Post Sun May 12, 2013 2:12 am

Re: Medeco m3 "Bumping"

Escher7, I'm going to pick on you for a second here. Don't get offended I'm just being a smart a...

escher7 wrote:or if you are saying Medecos are easy from the get go.
I would say that Medeco's are relatively easy from the get go. That's because I'm comparing them to Assa twins. If I compare them to Schlage classic Primus, ok yes, Medeco's are difficult. And if we compare them to 4 pin Master locks, Medeco's are really really difficult..

So the question is, what locks are you comparing them to?

escher7 wrote:There are not many that can pick Medecos without special tools.
Special tool=Drill + carbide bit. :razz:

escher7 wrote: If you can, then you are in the minority.
I agree with this. I don't believe that many lockpickers get to where they can pick any lock with a UL label..
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escher7

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Post Sun May 12, 2013 3:39 am

Re: Medeco m3 "Bumping"

Farmerfreak wrote:Escher7, I'm going to pick on you for a second here. Don't get offended I'm just being a smart a...

escher7 wrote:or if you are saying Medecos are easy from the get go.
I would say that Medeco's are relatively easy from the get go. That's because I'm comparing them to Assa twins. If I compare them to Schlage classic Primus, ok yes, Medeco's are difficult. And if we compare them to 4 pin Master locks, Medeco's are really really difficult..

So the question is, what locks are you comparing them to?

escher7 wrote:There are not many that can pick Medecos without special tools.
Special tool=Drill + carbide bit. :razz:

escher7 wrote: If you can, then you are in the minority.
I agree with this. I don't believe that many lockpickers get to where they can pick any lock with a UL label..


Don't get offended, but when you can breeze through a Protec 2 I'll be impressed.
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Farmerfreak

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Post Sun May 12, 2013 4:14 am

Re: Medeco m3 "Bumping"

escher7 wrote:Don't get offended, but when you can breeze through a Protec 2 I'll be impressed.
I'm not, with a special bit I can breeze through them.:wink:

Admittedly I cannot pick an Abloy classic, let alone a protec 2. And of course when comparing a Medeco to an Abloy (or any other quality built disc detainer lock), the Medeco is nothing more than a toy..
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huxleypig

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Post Sun May 12, 2013 8:24 pm

Re: Medeco m3 "Bumping"

escher7 wrote:
huxleypig wrote:Well, they can only be bumped once the sidebar code had been set. Which can be done with special code setting keys (which you can make your own version of if you like).

At that point bumping it provides a quick and easy entry but picking one once the sidebar is set isn't as hard as escher7 is making out. I'm no wonder picker and I've opened the classic, biaxial, M3 and the camlock with normal tools in not too long a time (in fact, I found setting the rotation was the hardest thing, not picking it). I do have a hook with a 'V' cut out of it to help with pin rotation but I just use a normal old medium hook most of the time.




I am not sure if you are saying that picking is easy after the sidebar is set, which is true except for a couple of security pins, or if you are saying Medecos are easy from the get go. If you are saying the latter, I would disagree. There are not many that can pick Medecos without special tools. If you can, then you are in the minority.



Yes, easy AFTER the sidebar is set. Setting the sidebar is the tricky part but when you can do it gradually, releasing tension wherever you want and not lose the progress up until that point it does make life simpler.

However, I would maintain that no special tools are required. Some people simply rake the sidebar into being set. I pulse tension and use a medium hook.
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xeo

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Post Sun May 12, 2013 9:21 pm

Re: Medeco m3 "Bumping"

Oh wow. This is an old thread. I was asking what they were doing in the video, they are using the infamous code setting keys. I was poking around for information on Medeco when I was learning to SPP them, hence my snide comment about it being "cheating".

I agree with everything Farmerfreak said... its all about perspective.
Image
The code is hidden in the tumblers. One position opens the lock, another position opens one of these doors...
http://www.youtube.com/xeotech1

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escher7

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Post Mon May 13, 2013 12:31 am

Re: Medeco m3 "Bumping"

xeo wrote:Oh wow. This is an old thread. I was asking what they were doing in the video, they are using the infamous code setting keys. I was poking around for information on Medeco when I was learning to SPP them, hence my snide comment about it being "cheating".

I agree with everything Farmerfreak said... its all about perspective.



He does contradict himself though. First he says they are easy, then he agrees that not many people can do it.

However, my initial comment really was a question about whether those of you who do find the locks "easy" use any special tools or whether you just use basic picks and a tension tool. Tobias himself indicates in "Open in Thirty Seconds" that picking Medecos is not a dependable technique in the field, which is why he went to the trouble of designing the code setting keys. Are they "purist"? Probably not and from that perspective they are cheating. But at the end of the day, whether we do it or not, we are talking about defeating locks which have the main function of protecting people and valuables. In the back of many lockpickers' minds is the theoretical question: "Could I do this in a real situation".
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Farmerfreak

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Post Mon May 13, 2013 1:18 am

Re: Medeco m3 "Bumping"

escher7 wrote:He does contradict himself though. First he says they are easy, then he agrees that not many people can do it.
I suppose you could see that as a contradiction.. Along those lines a 6 pin schlage C keyway is difficult because a lot of pickers can't pick them or at least cannot pick them with any consistency.

Keep in mind that I am one of those elite pickers, and to me they are easy. Unless we are talking about Medeco's cam lock design, it wouldn't be unreasonable for me to SPP pick one in the field. I haven't had the opportunity to do so on a Medeco, but a few months ago I picked a Schlage classic primus. I even had the option of going back out to the truck and getting an under the door tool. But picking it was the faster option.

Granted a Medeco would take longer, but it'd still be reasonable. I use normal picks most of the time (gem/hook). I have a groove grabber, and if I was in the field I would give that a try first as it could save time.

I don't have much luck picking Medeco cam locks. However it is my understanding that from time to time they can be raked easily. But that isn't a consistent method, and SPP those can be very time consuming for me..
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kilby

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Post Mon May 13, 2013 12:45 pm

Re: Medeco m3 "Bumping"

escher7 wrote:
Don't get offended, but when you can breeze through a Protec 2 I'll be impressed.


Comparing a medeco to a Protec is not an appropriate comparison, apart from the reason they are built they're different beasts.

It's been proved that Medecos can be opened (NDE) and the Protec is still limited to theoretical attacks only for NDE.

This is I believe the recommended Protec attack but it's not very NDE [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=uj4myR2XlWc[/youtube]
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escher7

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Post Mon May 13, 2013 3:15 pm

Re: Medeco m3 "Bumping"

kilby wrote:
escher7 wrote:
Don't get offended, but when you can breeze through a Protec 2 I'll be impressed.


Comparing a medeco to a Protec is not an appropriate comparison, apart from the reason they are built they're different beasts.

It's been proved that Medecos can be opened (NDE) and the Protec is still limited to theoretical attacks only for NDE.

This is I believe the recommended Protec attack but it's not very NDE [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=uj4myR2XlWc[/youtube]


If Xeo thinks Tobias code setting keys are cheating then I imagine a drill is really cheating.
One of these days some elite picker will defeat the Protec. The Classic has been beaten, although again, special tools are required. There was a day when Medeco was considered insurmountable.
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escher7

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Post Mon May 13, 2013 3:21 pm

Re: Medeco m3 "Bumping"

Farmerfreak wrote:
escher7 wrote:He does contradict himself though. First he says they are easy, then he agrees that not many people can do it.
I suppose you could see that as a contradiction.. Along those lines a 6 pin schlage C keyway is difficult because a lot of pickers can't pick them or at least cannot pick them with any consistency.

Keep in mind that I am one of those elite pickers, and to me they are easy. Unless we are talking about Medeco's cam lock design, it wouldn't be unreasonable for me to SPP pick one in the field. I haven't had the opportunity to do so on a Medeco, but a few months ago I picked a Schlage classic primus. I even had the option of going back out to the truck and getting an under the door tool. But picking it was the faster option.

Granted a Medeco would take longer, but it'd still be reasonable. I use normal picks most of the time (gem/hook). I have a groove grabber, and if I was in the field I would give that a try first as it could save time.

I don't have much luck picking Medeco cam locks. However it is my understanding that from time to time they can be raked easily. But that isn't a consistent method, and SPP those can be very time consuming for me..



I wasn't able to find what is different about the M cam locks. Do they have additional security features?
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xeo

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Post Mon May 13, 2013 3:28 pm

Re: Medeco m3 "Bumping"

Ignore what I said about code setting keys being cheating. That is a personal belief of mine when it comes to lockpicking and has nothing to do with opening a lock. Code setting keys are a viable method of picking Medeco cylinders, as is a drill. You can't compare a Medeco to a Protec in terms of comparing how both were considered impossible to defeat and the Medeco was defeated despite this. The large hype about Medeco being unpickable had no actual mechanical technicality behind it to back up the claim. The claim was just none other than people thinking that you cannot rotate the pins into place with a pick. The Protec has a mechanical claim to back up its insurmountability, the locking bar mechanism which makes manipulating a single disc and working a binding order "theoretically" impossible. I am sure one day someone will come up with a way to defeat this. Until then, the Protec gets the drill every time!

To answer your question about the Medeco cam locks, they are driverless. The sidebar uses circular poles instead of slots making it a much more precise fit into the keypins true gate. The keypins are filled with serrations and false gates. They are very hard to pick, much harder than a Medeco with drivers and slotted sidebars. I've only successfully picked a few of these after much practice... and I've had my hands on two others I wasn't able to pick at all.
Image
The code is hidden in the tumblers. One position opens the lock, another position opens one of these doors...
http://www.youtube.com/xeotech1

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