Help with ace weather guard

[Riff]

Hey guys, The first experience I've had with security pins was with 2 brinks high security padlocks. It contains 1 or 2 spools...I can drop both of these locks into false set in seconds...just by raking. Then I go in and pick up the spools....Very easy.....SO, with my confidence high I though I would go find me a master weather guard lock to try and pick (heard they had a couple spools)....When I got to the hardware store they didnt have any masters. But they did have is what I view as a master knockoff ACE brand weather guard. I cannot get this lock into false set. the bitting does not look to crazy. I'm trying to figure out what im doing wrong. I've tried raking with every rake I own, spp....Various degrees of tension...Just cannot get it into false set. I can feel when I let off tension that at least a couple of pins dropping from shear. It feels like some of spools are "crunching" into place, BUT i'm getting NO feedback on my TW....Can u guys give me some advice? This lock is really bothering me. I can post pictures if that would help. It's a four pin lock...... Thanks much!! Riff

[the lockpickkid]

It's been my experience that these Ace locks are actually a Brinks knockoff. Sometimes the Brinks are harder to pick, I actually don't have any brinks that I can rake and then set the spools, not that it's impossible. Use light tension with your Ace lock and use a hook and hit each pin individually, usually I find that these will pick from the back forward, work back to front and then front to back. If you can pick Brinks like you said you have done you shouldn't have any problems with this new lock, you just have to figure it out, and I bet by the end of the day, you actually have this opened!

[HallisChalmers]

Can u guys give me some advice? This lock is really bothering me. I can post pictures if that would help. It's a four pin lock...... Thanks much!! Riff

Is it one of these?

ace.jpg

If so, here's what I would do:

Shitcan the weatherguard at the bottom keyway attached to the rubber lanyard. What I found is that if you keep that rubber guard on it - it kills the feedback from the tension wrench. Look at it this way - you have a rubber WX guard with a metal tension wrench trying to slide across the top.

What happens? You get resistance. Resistance is bad.

Take it off - let the TW slide down and then carefully work the pins. Depending on the key cut, you may have a hi-lo pin combination that makes you drop pins when you try to pick it. Try a thin euro-style hook or a hybrid diamond and see if you can reach past the tricky part.

I don't think these have any real high security pins - maybe some spools and serrated pins. Also, take a look at the pins - are they brass or steel? Steel pins can be a pain in the butt sometimes, due to their slickness.

Where brass pins offer some resistance to give you feedback - steel pins just seem to slide easier - making it more difficult to feel what they are doing.

I had a similar experience with a Brinks WX lock. If you look at the vid - you'll see I had trouble with it. Why? Because I left the WX guard on it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTi01IkYSuE

[Riff]

It's been my experience that these Ace locks are actually a Brinks knockoff. Sometimes the Brinks are harder to pick, I actually don't have any brinks that I can rake and then set the spools, not that it's impossible. Use light tension with your Ace lock and use a hook and hit each pin individually, usually I find that these will pick from the back forward, work back to front and then front to back. If you can pick Brinks like you said you have done you shouldn't have any problems with this new lock, you just have to figure it out, and I bet by the end of the day, you actually have this opened!

Well i want to be clear. I can pick 2 brinks "high" security that I bought...I also bought a brass "maximum" security that I cant get into false set either...but I put that one aside for the time since I think it's quite a bit above my capabilities. So if you had a brinks "high" security lock (not brass) maybe they are that easy to set the spools. (by raking) It would be coincidence if I bought 2 and there are both rediculously easy. I bought the other one to test that very theory. I initially though I got one with easy bitting. Thanks Riff

[Riff]

Can u guys give me some advice? This lock is really bothering me. I can post pictures if that would help. It's a four pin lock...... Thanks much!! Riff

Is it one of these?

ace.jpg

If so, here's what I would do:

Shitcan the weatherguard at the bottom keyway attached to the rubber lanyard. What I found is that if you keep that rubber guard on it - it kills the feedback from the tension wrench. Look at it this way - you have a rubber WX guard with a metal tension wrench trying to slide across the top.

What happens? You get resistance. Resistance is bad.

Take it off - let the TW slide down and then carefully work the pins. Depending on the key cut, you may have a hi-lo pin combination that makes you drop pins when you try to pick it. Try a thin euro-style hook or a hybrid diamond and see if you can reach past the tricky part.

I don't think these have any real high security pins - maybe some spools and serrated pins. Also, take a look at the pins - are they brass or steel? Steel pins can be a pain in the butt sometimes, due to their slickness.

Where brass pins offer some resistance to give you feedback - steel pins just seem to slide easier - making it more difficult to feel what they are doing.

I had a similar experience with a Brinks WX lock. If you look at the vid - you'll see I had trouble with it. Why? Because I left the WX guard on it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTi01IkYSuE

That is exactly the lock.
Actually taking that weather guard part off is the first thing I did! I learned that from watching one of wizz's vids!! The pins are brass (in color anyway) ill do what you tell me and try my offset diamond in there and see what I can get done. I'm having a bit of a problem understanding bitting...what makes some bittings harder than others. like when you said "hi-lo pin combination that makes you drop pins when you try to pick it" , that's kind of hard for me to visualize... I mean obviously I know when the bitting is all pretty level then it will be easier, but the reasons why a high low and dropping of pins kinda confuses me... Thanks for the help!!! I'll keep at it... Riff

[barbarian]

Let's say the farthest back pin in the lock was a short one, so it needed to be lifted the most to be at the shear. Then let's say the pin just before it was long. It would hardly have to be lifted at all. The problem is to use your pick to get the back pin, it's very hard not to lift the one before it unintentionally.

If you look at some keys, you will notice a very deep cut near the bow (long pin) and some shallow cuts toward the tip. (short pin).

[Riff]

Let's say the farthest back pin in the lock was a short one, so it needed to be lifted the most to be at the shear. Then let's say the pin just before it was long. It would hardly have to be lifted at all. The problem is to use your pick to get the back pin, it's very hard not to lift the one before it unintentionally.

If you look at some keys, you will notice a very deep cut near the bow (long pin) and some shallow cuts toward the tip. (short pin).

Thanks for the reply! So lets say your scenerio is the case. How would one get underneath the pins that are set (that are basically in the way)? i've tried using a longer hook to get underneath them, but they I cant get it into the lock. (at least not that far back anyway) Thanks.
Riff

[the lockpickkid]

your right riff, mine are all maximum security, they probably are different than your high security ones, as far as a long hook, well, I have never been able to use one of those myself because the hook is way too long to ever fit into any of my locks, they might work in some locks in another country, but I haven't seen a lock that they will really fit in here.

[Riff]

your right riff, mine are all maximum security, they probably are different than your high security ones, as far as a long hook, well, I have never been able to use one of those myself because the hook is way too long to ever fit into any of my locks, they might work in some locks in another country, but I haven't seen a lock that they will really fit in here.

So how do you reach a pin in the back that needs to be lifted without disturbing one that is set before it in a "low" position?

[HallisChalmers]

So how do you reach a pin in the back that needs to be lifted without disturbing one that is set before it in a "low" position?

That sir, is where patience, skill, and the ability to use multiple picks to do the job come into play. You have to try different sets of tools and methods of attack.

For example, if you compare a set of short hooks - say a Gosso short hook and an HPC or ProLok short hook - you will see that the angles of the hooks are slightly different. Some hooks have more of a "straight" drop - while others have a more gradual drop - resulting in a less abrupt "drop" of the pick tip.

A pick with a straighter drop can let you reach over a longer pin and touch the next shorter one.

For example, take a look at the set of Majestic hooks at the top bottom of this page.

Now look at the set of Lab picks (bottom of page) and notice how those short hook angles are different than the Majestics.

Also compare 002 against 005.

See what I mean? That is why you need to build up your picking arsenal to include several varieties of hooks to give you the ability to switch tools in mid-stream and adapt to changing demands on you and your picking skills.

You need to be able to carefully insert your various tools using different attack angles (from the pick) to get "over" a longer pin and set the shorter pin.

Visualize reaching over a tall guy's head to touch the shorter guy next to him.

I'm not being condescending - just trying to help you visualize what you are doing and attempting to accomplish.

Hope this helps a bit.

Majestic pick.jpg

[Pederson]

I was going to post something close to that because I have a kwikset with two 9 cuts as the first then 5s or higher the rest of the way. I havent been able to pick it with regular pins and drivers. I was bugging me soo much thanks Hallis!

[HallisChalmers]

I was going to post something close to that because I have a kwikset with two 9 cuts as the first then 5s or higher the rest of the way. I havent been able to pick it with regular pins and drivers. I was bugging me soo much thanks Hallis!

Just keep in mind that when you are picking - everything is on the table. Use every trick in the book, every possible combination of tools, tension wrenches, top of keyway or bottom keyway tension, etc.

Short of destructive entry - try every method you can think of.

But always remember that if it is easy - then you are not having fun.

The prize is using all your skills and cunning to conquer an unfeeling, stone-faced combination of metal parts that will test your will to win every time you take a whack at it.

[Pederson]

ehh I dont have that many picks so I am going to go make some more hooks

[awol70]

ehh I dont have that many picks so I am going to go make some more hooks

way to go....
mos def.

[Riff]

So how do you reach a pin in the back that needs to be lifted without disturbing one that is set before it in a "low" position?

That sir, is where patience, skill, and the ability to use multiple picks to do the job come into play. You have to try different sets of tools and methods of attack.

For example, if you compare a set of short hooks - say a Gosso short hook and an HPC or ProLok short hook - you will see that the angles of the hooks are slightly different. Some hooks have more of a "straight" drop - while others have a more gradual drop - resulting in a less abrupt "drop" of the pick tip.

A pick with a straighter drop can let you reach over a longer pin and touch the next shorter one.

For example, take a look at the set of Majestic hooks at the top bottom of this page.

Now look at the set of Lab picks (bottom of page) and notice how those short hook angles are different than the Majestics.

Also compare 002 against 005.

See what I mean? That is why you need to build up your picking arsenal to include several varieties of hooks to give you the ability to switch tools in mid-stream and adapt to changing demands on you and your picking skills.

You need to be able to carefully insert your various tools using different attack angles (from the pick) to get "over" a longer pin and set the shorter pin.

Visualize reaching over a tall guy's head to touch the shorter guy next to him.

I'm not being condescending - just trying to help you visualize what you are doing and attempting to accomplish.

Hope this helps a bit.

Majestic pick.jpg

Thanks for the info! I understand a bit more about what is going on here. I'll just have to put it into practice and figure it out for myself. I'm refering to getting at pins that are in the way of others. I have 4 sets currently. HPC, southord, the ones with the ripple handles, and majestic. I Have notice the different angles on the hpc and the majestic hook, so I know what you are talking about. I'm hoping that I can buy just hooks and not have to buy entire sets. (starving student over here) ...You knowing which sets i have, What do you suggest that I add to my arsenal of picks? Any particular brand? Like be quite different from what I already have? It is VERY hard from pictures to tell which hooks would be different from the ones I already have. I assume you guys have more or an arsenal of hooks than I do so maybe you guys could give me a little guidance before I start spending money that I dont really have on picks that are going to be just like the ones I already have. Its alot easier to tell the differences when you have them in you hand than from pictures....it's near impossible. Eventually I will own a set of all of them. But im trying to spend my money wisely at the momement. Thanks guys!!! Riff