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UL437 - who's actually read it?

PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 5:50 am
by plugspin
Greetings,
So has anyone actually read UL437? I am looking to get my hands on the complete text of it, preferably the latest current version. This is purely academic, reference to it gets tossed around a lot but I'd like to lay eyes on the actual document. Yes I know it can be purchased but since I'm not an engineer designing something to meet the spec my cash should go to something much more useful like locks ;-). Also I know lockwiki.com has an overview of it, but I'd like to see the entire document.

Thanks,
-plugspin

Re: UL437 - who's actually read it?

PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 6:00 am
by Anarchy_won
I have only read a overview of it... if you find a digital copy please PM me the link :) I would like to give it a read.

Re: UL437 - who's actually read it?

PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 7:31 am
by GWiens2001

Re: UL437 - who's actually read it?

PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 7:41 am
by Josephus
Unfortunately that is just the table of contents. UL is an old fashioned engineering organization. They don't do anything for free and are willing to be litigious. The going rate for version eight is $502 USD harcopy $402 USD for pdf. Yeah, hundreds of dollars to read the whole thing. Now it would be copyright infringement for me to post the outdated versions that can be had around with some searching. It would also be infringement for me to actually tell you what certain Chinese sites that can frequently have all the info you could possibly want at no charge. I suppose it would be enough to say that 40% of internet users don't speak any western languages and do not care at all about western laws. The older versions I have seen were not the slightest bit interesting if it wasn't for an exception. Slam hammers and a few other destructive things aren't allowed during testing of two key systems while they are used on single key systems. Don't know why.

If you have not seen this already, it is a pdf of a defcon 15 slideshow by Tobias that does a pretty good rundown of what security standards test and, more importantly, don't test.
Interesting bit of inconsistency, UL claims 437 has been approved by ANSI. Truth is only the 2000 version was, the database was updated to display version 7 but has never been approved. Even old standards organizations have a hard time getting info from other old standards organizations it seems.

Re: UL437 - who's actually read it?

PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 5:05 pm
by xeo
Interesting information which is not the least bit surprising given the track record of deception and illusory tactics by security companies, security ratings and marketing bozos. The fact that they charge money to simply view their material is also not surprising. Security ratings have never meant anything to me (or likely any informed researcher)... and have only mattered to the uninformed public who takes a product label at face value and never asks questions.

What I find the most disturbing is that all these locks you see for sale at hardware stores have security ratings yet the door or hasp they are put on are likely made of cheap material which can be kicked in or crowbarred open. Another dead horse which has been beaten to death brings up the example of a Protec 2 installed on a low quality front door. The lock may be unpickable but the door is not unkickable ;)

What good is a security rating then in that case? It actually serves no purpose whatsoever outside of the vacuum they tested it in. I see ANSI and UL as just another con on the public.

Re: UL437 - who's actually read it?

PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 6:09 pm
by Anarchy_won
there is no way $400 is reasonable for a digital copy. I will check and see if there is a copy at the library I can read ;)

Re: UL437 - who's actually read it?

PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 6:21 pm
by flywheel
Fatal flaws, what fatal flaws?

Security through obscurity.

Re: UL437 - who's actually read it?

PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 3:18 am
by plugspin
Thanks for the discussion :). I've found that there's actually an interesting market in discounted standards documents. I actually purchased ASTM-F833-09 which Master touts for $8 from some fly-by-night standards reseller (retails for around $60 directly from ASTM). Once I knew the site was legit I went back for UL437 (for another $8) but they stopped accepting payments, then a day later they went offline. Interestingly I found another site (www.standardpdf.co) that immediately popped up listing the exact same list of standards bodies with a different site template which has higher prices for the docs. They currently list UL437 for $200, but even at that steep discount I'm reluctant to buy it yet ;-).