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Pinning profiles most difficult to pick

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flywheel

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Post Mon Feb 24, 2014 6:01 am

Pinning profiles most difficult to pick

If the last pin is the shortest and the second to last pin is the longest would that be the most difficult profile to pick? Put that in a constrictive keyway and it would be a done deal. I would think it would be impossible to set the short pin without oversetting the long pin. Maybe higher security locks already do that as a matter of principle.
Or is the difference in pin heights not significant enough without disturbing the lock function in some way?
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piotr

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Post Mon Feb 24, 2014 6:28 am

Re: Pinning profiles most difficult to pick

flywheel wrote:If the last pin is the shortest and the second to last pin is the longest would that be the most difficult profile to pick?


It is a hard biting to pick but I don't know if it is the most difficult. I suppose a more difficult bitting would be one that is high-low-high-low-hight-low etc.

Put that in a constrictive keyway and it would be a done deal.


Yes a restrictive keyway would add to the difficulty because it would constrain the type of pick that could be inserted.

I would think it would be impossible to set the short pin without oversetting the long pin.


I don't know if I would say it is "impossible". There are pick designs designed for bittings like that. Where the keyway allows, a deep curve will allow a short pin to be set without over-setting the preceding long pin. Aside from deep curves there are also Peterson DCAPs which have narrow shanks that don't taper and TOOOL have a "overreach" style pick in their Fabulous Five.

Maybe higher security locks already do that as a matter of principle.
Or is the difference in pin heights not significant enough without disturbing the lock function in some way?


There is a bitting parameter termed MACS which stands for Maximum Adjacent Cut Specification and specfies the maximum value different between adjacent cuts on a key. MACS can be ignored to make a lock more difficult to pick but it is not recommended for in-use locks because there is a risk of the key getting stuck in the lock.
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mechanical_nightmare

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Post Mon Feb 24, 2014 1:55 pm

Re: Pinning profiles most difficult to pick

flywheel wrote:
If the last pin is the shortest and the second to last pin is the longest would that be the most difficult profile to pick?


I would say it also depends on the binding order. For example, in a 5 pin lock if the binding order is 5-4-3-2-1 (almost never the case but yeah) or even 5-4-2-3-1, then the #5 pin (shortest) can be set, moving on to #4 (longest) and then the others. In that case the shorter pin wouldn't make it hard to pick. When the high-low pattern repeats itself, along with a snaky keyway, that is when it gets harder (without considering security pins, sidebar, etc.)

Here is an ABUS that I have with the #5 pin being shortest:

Image

The shorter pin does present an obstacle of sorts, but it can still be picked, pretty easily...

Also as piotr said, manufacturers are limited in their use of dramatic bitting because of the MACS specification. Kale Kilit, ABUS and Vachette absolutely love dramatic bitting as far as I have seen.
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GWiens2001

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Post Mon Feb 24, 2014 1:58 pm

Re: Pinning profiles most difficult to pick

Call me strange, but find the 12th pin, at full height, to be very challenging. The key on the right.

Image

Gordon
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mechanical_nightmare

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Post Mon Feb 24, 2014 2:10 pm

Re: Pinning profiles most difficult to pick

Holy smokes!

I doubt I even have a pick that can reach in that far... That is quite an obstacle to picking the lock indeed. What lock does that key go into btw?
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GWiens2001

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Post Mon Feb 24, 2014 2:37 pm

Re: Pinning profiles most difficult to pick

The equivalent of a deadbolt. It is a LOB TUR1, from Poland. Would snap another shot of the keyway, but it is currently off with Rai as he plays with picking tools.

Have a 10 pin wavy Bogota that Rai made that I was able to pick the lock with, though still had to make a looooong hook to lift the 10th pin.

Gordon
Just when you think you've learned it all, that is when you find you haven't learned anything yet.
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flywheel

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Post Mon Feb 24, 2014 6:01 pm

Re: Pinning profiles most difficult to pick

When I look at a keyway like the "WK" with two 90 degree corners I wonder how would it even be possible to get a long hook in there? And a lock manufacturer could just say the final two pins will be short and long and their locks are now 10x more pick resistant. Additionally, just drill the last hole 0.001" wider and it will never bind first.
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MrAnybody

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Post Mon Feb 24, 2014 7:12 pm

Re: Pinning profiles most difficult to pick

I have this on a Yale 870 padlock :D

Image

Not picked it yet, but I don't think I could want for a more nightmare of a bitting. I asked a friend to rekey it from 5 to 6 pin and this is what he gave me :D

Thankfully, the keyway is no more than a Y2
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